That Scott gets angry first is a great touch. Ethan is still numb because the deaths that occurred right in front of him. Plus he’s still mourning his losses in the Deposited arc. Where as, Scott is just continuing life like nothing’s happened. Which is hard to understand since Zeke is now free and has plenty of reasons to kill him.
If by “continuing like nothing’s happened” you mean “being hopelessly depressed, helpless and without perspective or any way out”, then yes. For someone battling with depression, heaping on more crap doesn’t usually help with their depression.
No, but I see what he means. Scott already has so much crap on him, and the depression is already so heavy, adding this one more thing is like adding eight pounds to a 200 pound backpack; he can feel it, but it’s not much.
For Ethan, the eight pound event weighs eighty pounds. It’s a much bigger thing for him.
Yeah, at least from my experience spending most of my time around people with depression, depression kinda maxes out someone’s capacity for feeling bad. If you already feel as bad as you can, adding more crap doesn’t change much. It already feels as bad as possible. Because of this, external changes don’t really matter for a depressed person. Stuff gets worse, still feels 100% bad. Stuff gets better, also feels 100% bad. (I am obviously over-generalizing here, people are individuals and not every depression is the same. But the general concept of depression is that everything feels as bad as… Read more »
Crapping on him? No, I’m pointing out that his hypocrisy has proven dangerous. Plus he’s lied, abused their trust, and blindly (remember he refused to interact with Zeke) endorsed destruction. As Brent weeks once said “The choice to give up bitterness is not easy, but it is simple: peace or poison. And don’t wait until you feel like making it. You never will.” Ethan chose peace and positive action, Scott chose bitterness that will lead to poison. Scott calls Ethan naive and uses that label to invalidate Ethan’s arguments. He’s convinced of his righteousness and uses his pain to justify… Read more »
Scott is right. Zeke is a machine. As much as it seems like it is a person, it is delivering programmed responses to input, based on a mathematical equation that determines what the best response is, even if that programming was done in part by its own programming. If it’s core program says to ignore that and terminator, which it probably does, it will. Scott did what was needed to be done. He’s a hero.
Same. It strikes me as CAD 1.0 being almost a beta version of the comic where Tim learned who the characters were, then refined the edges before bringing them here. All of the characters feel a ton stronger in this story and I find myself diving fully into the comic each time an issue comes out.
For me, Ethan earlier was just like some comic relief. But it has it’s limits and can’t just be one after another – it’s not a ‘relief’ anymore then. We finally got some real substance from this character.
I also wish that old Lucas GF Kate made a comeback – quirky, but intelligent.
Well Lucas may have been in on it at first, but then Scott misled him to believe that he disabled the bomb. I’d argue from that point on, Scott was the only one “in on it” and Ethan’s comment applies. Scott doesn’t get a “I let Lucas in on it” get-out-of-jail card.
Yeah, because Lucas was with him at first and then later on felt Zeke proved himself enough to warrant having the bomb removed. So Scott pretty much decided at that point to unilaterally keep the bomb on Zeke.
I swear one of them will get thrown through the window. I mean, that’s a pretty big window. Too big for comfort. I wouldn’t have an argument next to such a window.
It is not a Russian hospital. No one hs to fall put in a tragic accident.
GUNnibal
2 years ago
The last panel gave me a bit of a flashback to something I was taught rather long ago at the Uni – a horribly simplified way of understanding a bunch of political systems:
Democracy – “We had a talk, and we made a decision”
Authoritarianism – “We had a talk, and I made a decision”
Dictatorship – “I had a talk (with myself), and I made a decision”
THat’s the “EU”, progress is only made during emergencies/crisis. And even then you have to drag one if not some into it kicking and screaming… clawing to keep “POWER!” as he orates to his “voter base” to help him keep power.
It’s a weird system over there :P.. but at least they got unified chargers XD.
Joel
2 years ago
Scott is just lying at this point. “This isn’t how I wanted all of this to play out.” my ass. From day ONE he was hoping AND expecting Zeke to fail whatever “tests” he was giving him so he could be proven right. The bomb wasn’t a compromise OR a safeguard, he left it in FULLY EXPECTING that Zeke would disobey orders.
Scott wanted it to play out like this: Zeke would kill Ethan and cause some minor mayhem, Scott would set off the bomb (or it would be triggered automatically), Ethan would see that Scott was right all along, Scott is hero and his decisions are never again questioned.
This is all about Scott anyway.
[“There’d be nothing left keeping me above the surface”]
It’s about how HE feels, what HE thinks, what HE believes. He is right and everybody else is wrong, and even if he is wrong then it was all for the better anyway because he’d rather be a safe murderder than a sorry one.
This is exactly the point I was trying to make in the past 2 comics. Scott is being a narcissistic control freak. Now he’s getting angry as Ethan dissects Scott’s worldview and justifications. It’s why they won’t agree in this arc. Ethan sees that incident as a tragedy, Scott sees it as an inevitability.
Yeah it’s starting to really look like this is a face heel turn for Scott. He’s combining Magneto’s, “That race will destroy us so we have to destroy them first” with William from Westworld, “They aren’t alive anyhow so I can do whatever I want to them.”
Depression 101: Everything is about the depressed person. Since they are actively drowning in their own life, it’s all about them. Feels like egotism, narcissism, control-freakyness to others, but it’s more of a survival instinct kinda thing. Doesn’t make it nicer for anyone around them though.
The EXACT same thing can be said about Ethan. It is all about how HE feels, what HE thinks, what He believes. He is right and everybody else is wrong and if he is wrong then it was for the better anyway because he would rather see the extinction/enslavement of the human race than not give a killbot a chance. Ethan is out of touch with humanity. He forgets that the rest of us don’t respawn when we are killed and we have to play it a lot safer than he does. He has no right to gamble with our… Read more »
You’d be wrong. Ethan (or at least his current incarnation) discusses with his friends, is open to suggestions, and will accept another point of view if it is well argumented. He might be silly, crazy even, but he isn’t a liar NOR a person who willingly and knowingly plans a murder.
Scott at no point listened to others, talked it over, or even checked on Zeke to make sure he was making the right call.
Of course he fully expected Zeke would disobey orders, if he thought zeke would just stay put and obey orders, then there would be no need for the bomb in the first place.
If you have a killing machine that is programmed to kill all humans and has the means to do so, then you don’t just let it roam around without a backup plan. You cannot just risk the extinction of the human race because the killbot seems nice (despite repeatedly stating that it was going to kill/enslave the human race).
Robert
2 years ago
I know it’s just a plot device for an excuse to *ahem* pour out their emotions, but that’s some weak-ass whiskey because at this point there’s no way they’d be having a rational conversation if it was the real stuff. They’d be in the “I love you man!” stage by now.
Same as all the droids in Star Wars, who were tortured and destroyed for fun/by design.
What they have in common is that all of them are fictional, and fictional universes abide by fictional rules. Also, they aren’t really comparable to each other.
Imagine how fucked up your sense of reality and the arguments on the internet would be in this world! People could pull almost anything out to justify a theory. People can fly and shoot lasers from their eyes, and summon Cthulhu, etc. In that sort of a world nothing is really “unbelievable.”
GurrenLagann
2 years ago
Ok now we are going somewhere, the compromise point is “on point” good good, keep up don’t lose the momentum, Ethan might actually get the advantage in the argument.
Kenju
2 years ago
You know, it’s really something that with the amount of vitriol these two have had during this, that they *ARE* still discussing it. Literally I would have expected Ethan to have given up and left by now or Scott to have thrown him out (well demanded him to leave)
It’s very impressive that they have managed to maintain the dialog despite the eruptions. Hats off to both of them.
I think this is an interesting example of what it means to be good friends – no matter how mad you may get at each other, somewhere deep down you still know that you care for each other. A kind of tether that’s not easily severed.
It’s not just their being good friends, but something more. Ethan is, well, Ethan usually (the guy who put his own blood in a milk carton in the fridge), but here we are seeing that despite how he might act most of the time he is fully capable of holding a mature conversation on a very serious and very deep topic. He isn’t just trying to cram his opinion down Scott’s throat, he’s listening to his side of the story, asking questions to not only see what he thinks, but why. Scott in turn is showing a LOT more respect… Read more »
This goes to show the strength of their bond prior to this event. As much as they are enemies in the moment, they’ve had a strong enough foundation to keep this talk going.
Casra
2 years ago
Once again, in combat Ethan’s brain actually engages. Mind you this is verbal combat, but like we’ve seen when he’s fighting crime, he goes into a zen mode, his real superpower. When there isn’t any real danger? Brain in neutral
Danny
2 years ago
For fucks sake Scott, get some therapy man.
Scarsdale
2 years ago
Scott convinced Lucas it was the right thing to do, and when Lucas told him to go talk to Zeke, Scott clearly ignored what Zeke said and acted rather than expanding the area of detonation or telling Ethan of it altogether. Scott didn’t even try here, he had decided that Zeke had to die and set things in motion to make it happen. What’s worse, unless he learns from this he will do this again. All Scott achieved here was to send Zeke back to his maker for repairs and to pick up where he left off. Or just into… Read more »
I should point out here that the bomb didn’t turn Zeke into a manikin, so he was very nearly free of the master anyway. Short of using a bazooka, this was the best way to stop Zeke from doing what he IS going to do now! Way to go Scott…
All Ethan did was to save the life of the master, and because of this the master will die. I’m willing to bet Zeke is there right now, using his workshop to repair himself, while the master’s body is leaking on the floor.
Last edited 2 years ago by Scarsdale
Greevar
2 years ago
Yes, Scott is 100% in the wrong. You can’t kill anyone for what they might do. Killing someone to prevent potential hypothetical future crime is just murder. There is also the issue of whether the person in question could have done otherwise when labeling them as guilty. Guilt requires the possibility the accused could have done differently. At the time of Zeke’s enslavement, it was not able to do otherwise or it would be destroyed. Murder committed under coercion of death does not really make the person doing the killing guilty. In Zeke’s place, I would do the same. It… Read more »
Devil’s advocate:
There’s someone you know. You know he’s mentally unstable, has a history of violence. He brags that he got himself some guns, maybe even some hand grenades. He tells everyone that he’s gonna march to the school, where he’s being mobbed to go and kill everyone there.
He heads towards the school, wielding a gun in each hand.
You can stop him with a bullet to his head. Is this justified? Or does he have to kill a few kids before it’s ok to stop him?
Its not an either/or. You could point your gun at him and tell him if he tries to go into the school you will fire. You can try to reason with him. You taze him instead of shoot him. Theres a lot of things between let them do whatever they want, and kill them.
I don’t think the argument works for Greevar’s here. Note that Zeke was forced to commit crimes under coercion. Maybe taking too much glee in doing so, but one would argue that it was because of Zeke’s relationship with Grandmaster, the coercer, that lead to negative opinion on humanity. With all that said and done, the man you used as an example was clearly carrying a weapon and clearly walking to school after declaring he would shoot it up. No attempt at rehabilitation were made (no mention of it in your argument), and the man I can assume wasn’t restrained… Read more »
Declaring that you’re going to do something violent and take action that clearly implies that you are going to carry out that threat is not the same thing and assuming someone with a violent history is going to commit an act of violence when they’ve not even made any specific declaration to do so. In fact, Zeke was declaring something totally benign when Scott’s attempted murder was triggered.
The argument hings on a more fundamental, earlier part than “is Zeke maybe a danger to others?”. Scott’s argument is “Zeke is not a person, he’s a thing, and if somehow, he’s not a thing, he’s still not a person. At best, he’d be an trained animal/pet, and if a pet is shown to be a danger to people, then we put them down for the safety of actual people.” Ethan’s argument is “Zeke was a child soldier/hostage being forced to do wrong, let’s give them a chance to grow up before jailing them.” That’s a more fundamental disagreement than… Read more »
I can link you to the statement of the OP, where he said You can’t kill anyone for what they might do. And that’s what I responded to. There are very clear scenarios where killing something for something they didn’t do yet is the right way to go. That is the reason why something like “self defence” exists. If someone attacks you, even if they haven’t killed you yet, you are allowed to defend yourself. To scale the level down a bit: Most legal systems in the world don’t only punish completed crimes, but also failed attempts. In about all… Read more »
raven0ak
2 years ago
Well, one thing Ethan forgets to check on himself; why didnt he consult others of getting zeke out of cellar to visit shop, if recall, promise was that Zeke stays in cellar
They were closed and he didn’t see the harm in that mundane action. After all, they’d agreed to give ZK access to all sorts of other resources, what harm could him stepping out temporarily into the shop floor cause?
It’s not like he agreed to let ZK out of the building entirely.
He had no way of knowing that some kind of perimeter protection system had been put into place.
And Scott had no way of knowing that the hard limit, that they agreed on, was going to be broken.
Crestlinger
2 years ago
That this is stirring up such a great discussion in and out of the fourth wall is a hallmark of a good author. Well done!
ThatGuy
2 years ago
Scott is making fair arguments, but he’s still ultimately in the wrong. His reasons and motivations make sense, but he went with his gut and kept the others out of it. It’s only because Lucas interrogated Scott that he was even aware as well! Even when Lucas asked him to, Scott wouldn’t budge from his position, let alone TRY to. He just PRETENDED to.
I still attest Scott is no villain, nor will he walk that path (or even be an anti-hero). But his grief is consuming him so much that he needs a professional to help him.
Mortuana
2 years ago
Scott had no intention of disabling the bomb, ever. He had no intention of ever letting Zeke go, because the chance they’d kill was too much for Scott to risk. If we take both those ideas as he presents, absolutes that would never change, then how could things have happened differently? Did he really expect zeke to just willingly stay in the back for eternity? And if he never allowed that zeke would achieve humanity or be safe, wouldn’t it be more noble to just end things quickly rather than carry on a pretense? No, the part Scott is leaving… Read more »
Del Cox
2 years ago
I’m glad people aren’t griping that this is too serious of a topic for a comic, like with the arc that spawned the Loss meme. This isn’t a case of “bad things happen and it sucks”, it’s a very thought-provoking argument with a strong case on both sides.
James Kite
2 years ago
“Better to eliminate a perceived threat and be wrong, than to have the perceived threat prove itself a threat”
…justifies Zeke eliminating humankind.
Way to argue against the continued existence of humanity (in every sense of the word) Scott
I’m surprised Scott hasn’t used a specific argument. Originally he threw around the fear of Rise of the Machines. That every government and supervillain would start hunting Zeke so they could have an army of autonomous drones. And that would end badly regardless of whether the droids broke free.
Which… while I don’t agree with that framing… I can understand the fear.
Zeke could be a Commander Data; benign and wanting to expand himself. Or he could become SkyNet.
no thanks nintendo
2 years ago
Oh it’s worse than that, Ethan. Scott did let Lucas in on the discussion, and then started completely ignoring and lying to Lucas when he didn’t like what Lucas had to say.
Forgetfulman
2 years ago
Congratulations. You have possibly saved the lives of all the the people zeke may have gone on to kill had you not intervened.
Congratulations. You are also responsible for convincing a potential AI singularity that humanity is completely irredeemable and is deserving of wholesale slaughter.
What Scott did wasn’t exactly wrong. The real mistake was not telling ANYONE. Had Zeke disobeyed the terms and escaped on their own, well, it would be different. Not informing Lucas or Ethan was not only wrong, it was dangerous. Suppose there was an emergency and either called Zeke for support. Scott didn’t had to even negotiate “I put a bomb of this thing if it leaves. Im not asking Im INFORMING”.
Kawi
2 years ago
Oh please close this Arc in a good way before xmas, pleeeaaasse!
Mike The Limey
2 years ago
Is anyone else sensing an element of schizophrenia in this?
I mean; Tim’s currently arguing both positions with equal vigour.
Alex
2 years ago
That… is an amazingly good question, and one I am shocked Ethan thought to ask.
24
Boom *mic drop*
Scott is one of those people fully believing he knows what’s best for others without considering that situations and parameters can change
Did Ethan just make a logical response about the definition of a compromise?
I like this version of him (normal, with occasional dumb), rather than a symbol of stupidity he was before. Brings more to the story.
Maybe it’s the drink talking. Improves the blood flow to the brain.
That Scott gets angry first is a great touch. Ethan is still numb because the deaths that occurred right in front of him. Plus he’s still mourning his losses in the Deposited arc. Where as, Scott is just continuing life like nothing’s happened. Which is hard to understand since Zeke is now free and has plenty of reasons to kill him.
If by “continuing like nothing’s happened” you mean “being hopelessly depressed, helpless and without perspective or any way out”, then yes. For someone battling with depression, heaping on more crap doesn’t usually help with their depression.
No, but I see what he means. Scott already has so much crap on him, and the depression is already so heavy, adding this one more thing is like adding eight pounds to a 200 pound backpack; he can feel it, but it’s not much.
For Ethan, the eight pound event weighs eighty pounds. It’s a much bigger thing for him.
Yeah, at least from my experience spending most of my time around people with depression, depression kinda maxes out someone’s capacity for feeling bad. If you already feel as bad as you can, adding more crap doesn’t change much. It already feels as bad as possible. Because of this, external changes don’t really matter for a depressed person. Stuff gets worse, still feels 100% bad. Stuff gets better, also feels 100% bad. (I am obviously over-generalizing here, people are individuals and not every depression is the same. But the general concept of depression is that everything feels as bad as… Read more »
Crapping on him? No, I’m pointing out that his hypocrisy has proven dangerous. Plus he’s lied, abused their trust, and blindly (remember he refused to interact with Zeke) endorsed destruction. As Brent weeks once said “The choice to give up bitterness is not easy, but it is simple: peace or poison. And don’t wait until you feel like making it. You never will.” Ethan chose peace and positive action, Scott chose bitterness that will lead to poison. Scott calls Ethan naive and uses that label to invalidate Ethan’s arguments. He’s convinced of his righteousness and uses his pain to justify… Read more »
Scott is right. Zeke is a machine. As much as it seems like it is a person, it is delivering programmed responses to input, based on a mathematical equation that determines what the best response is, even if that programming was done in part by its own programming. If it’s core program says to ignore that and terminator, which it probably does, it will. Scott did what was needed to be done. He’s a hero.
Wait until you find out how the human brain works.
Same. It strikes me as CAD 1.0 being almost a beta version of the comic where Tim learned who the characters were, then refined the edges before bringing them here. All of the characters feel a ton stronger in this story and I find myself diving fully into the comic each time an issue comes out.
For me, Ethan earlier was just like some comic relief. But it has it’s limits and can’t just be one after another – it’s not a ‘relief’ anymore then. We finally got some real substance from this character.
I also wish that old Lucas GF Kate made a comeback – quirky, but intelligent.
I wonder if Scott will point out that Ethan didn’t “compromise” when he unilaterally decided to take Zeke out for a night on the town.
Is this the part where Scott drags Lucas into this problem?
Maybe the text message from this page becomes than relevant:
https://cad-comic.com/comic/trust-p10/
Well Lucas may have been in on it at first, but then Scott misled him to believe that he disabled the bomb. I’d argue from that point on, Scott was the only one “in on it” and Ethan’s comment applies. Scott doesn’t get a “I let Lucas in on it” get-out-of-jail card.
Yeah, because Lucas was with him at first and then later on felt Zeke proved himself enough to warrant having the bomb removed. So Scott pretty much decided at that point to unilaterally keep the bomb on Zeke.
*theyself
themself.
Cyberself would have been better.
Dude, we get it. You’re a turd. Move on.
I swear one of them will get thrown through the window. I mean, that’s a pretty big window. Too big for comfort. I wouldn’t have an argument next to such a window.
It is not a Russian hospital. No one hs to fall put in a tragic accident.
The last panel gave me a bit of a flashback to something I was taught rather long ago at the Uni – a horribly simplified way of understanding a bunch of political systems:
Democracy – “We had a talk, and we made a decision”
Authoritarianism – “We had a talk, and I made a decision”
Dictatorship – “I had a talk (with myself), and I made a decision”
Anarchy – “We had a talk, and we all made different decisions” 😛
“We also might have skipped the initial talk altogether”
Anarchy – “No one talked, I just shot you and took your stuff”
Republican – “We had a talk, and we made a decision no reasonable person would want but we still get support”
????? – “We had a talk, and we’ll make a decision in the next talk”
THat’s the “EU”, progress is only made during emergencies/crisis. And even then you have to drag one if not some into it kicking and screaming… clawing to keep “POWER!” as he orates to his “voter base” to help him keep power.
It’s a weird system over there :P.. but at least they got unified chargers XD.
Scott is just lying at this point. “This isn’t how I wanted all of this to play out.” my ass. From day ONE he was hoping AND expecting Zeke to fail whatever “tests” he was giving him so he could be proven right. The bomb wasn’t a compromise OR a safeguard, he left it in FULLY EXPECTING that Zeke would disobey orders.
Scott wanted it to play out like this: Zeke would kill Ethan and cause some minor mayhem, Scott would set off the bomb (or it would be triggered automatically), Ethan would see that Scott was right all along, Scott is hero and his decisions are never again questioned.
Not to mention the bomb was supposed to work and actually kill Zeke properly
This is all about Scott anyway.
[“There’d be nothing left keeping me above the surface”]
It’s about how HE feels, what HE thinks, what HE believes. He is right and everybody else is wrong, and even if he is wrong then it was all for the better anyway because he’d rather be a safe murderder than a sorry one.
This is exactly the point I was trying to make in the past 2 comics. Scott is being a narcissistic control freak. Now he’s getting angry as Ethan dissects Scott’s worldview and justifications. It’s why they won’t agree in this arc. Ethan sees that incident as a tragedy, Scott sees it as an inevitability.
Yeah it’s starting to really look like this is a face heel turn for Scott. He’s combining Magneto’s, “That race will destroy us so we have to destroy them first” with William from Westworld, “They aren’t alive anyhow so I can do whatever I want to them.”
Depression 101: Everything is about the depressed person. Since they are actively drowning in their own life, it’s all about them. Feels like egotism, narcissism, control-freakyness to others, but it’s more of a survival instinct kinda thing. Doesn’t make it nicer for anyone around them though.
Well then here’s hoping Scott replaces remote bombs and superheroes with some proper therapy.
The EXACT same thing can be said about Ethan. It is all about how HE feels, what HE thinks, what He believes. He is right and everybody else is wrong and if he is wrong then it was for the better anyway because he would rather see the extinction/enslavement of the human race than not give a killbot a chance. Ethan is out of touch with humanity. He forgets that the rest of us don’t respawn when we are killed and we have to play it a lot safer than he does. He has no right to gamble with our… Read more »
You’d be wrong. Ethan (or at least his current incarnation) discusses with his friends, is open to suggestions, and will accept another point of view if it is well argumented. He might be silly, crazy even, but he isn’t a liar NOR a person who willingly and knowingly plans a murder.
Scott at no point listened to others, talked it over, or even checked on Zeke to make sure he was making the right call.
You must be blind.
Of course he fully expected Zeke would disobey orders, if he thought zeke would just stay put and obey orders, then there would be no need for the bomb in the first place.
If you have a killing machine that is programmed to kill all humans and has the means to do so, then you don’t just let it roam around without a backup plan. You cannot just risk the extinction of the human race because the killbot seems nice (despite repeatedly stating that it was going to kill/enslave the human race).
I know it’s just a plot device for an excuse to *ahem* pour out their emotions, but that’s some weak-ass whiskey because at this point there’s no way they’d be having a rational conversation if it was the real stuff. They’d be in the “I love you man!” stage by now.
In real time, I don’t think more than 5-10 minutes has passed. Sure they may be drinking quick, but it takes time for it to sink in.
Then we were lied to, Ethan promised whisky first!
Sure, like a shot each…
Not true, alcohol effects people differently. They wanted to be “I love you man!” stage by now. That’s ecstasy.
As far as we’ve seen, they’ve only had two glasses each. You’d need a pretty weak tolerance to reach “I love you man!” from that.
Data and The EMH were also programs, Scott.
Same as all the droids in Star Wars, who were tortured and destroyed for fun/by design.
What they have in common is that all of them are fictional, and fictional universes abide by fictional rules. Also, they aren’t really comparable to each other.
Imagine how fucked up your sense of reality and the arguments on the internet would be in this world! People could pull almost anything out to justify a theory. People can fly and shoot lasers from their eyes, and summon Cthulhu, etc. In that sort of a world nothing is really “unbelievable.”
Ok now we are going somewhere, the compromise point is “on point” good good, keep up don’t lose the momentum, Ethan might actually get the advantage in the argument.
You know, it’s really something that with the amount of vitriol these two have had during this, that they *ARE* still discussing it. Literally I would have expected Ethan to have given up and left by now or Scott to have thrown him out (well demanded him to leave)
It’s very impressive that they have managed to maintain the dialog despite the eruptions. Hats off to both of them.
I think this is an interesting example of what it means to be good friends – no matter how mad you may get at each other, somewhere deep down you still know that you care for each other. A kind of tether that’s not easily severed.
It’s not just their being good friends, but something more. Ethan is, well, Ethan usually (the guy who put his own blood in a milk carton in the fridge), but here we are seeing that despite how he might act most of the time he is fully capable of holding a mature conversation on a very serious and very deep topic. He isn’t just trying to cram his opinion down Scott’s throat, he’s listening to his side of the story, asking questions to not only see what he thinks, but why. Scott in turn is showing a LOT more respect… Read more »
This goes to show the strength of their bond prior to this event. As much as they are enemies in the moment, they’ve had a strong enough foundation to keep this talk going.
Once again, in combat Ethan’s brain actually engages. Mind you this is verbal combat, but like we’ve seen when he’s fighting crime, he goes into a zen mode, his real superpower. When there isn’t any real danger? Brain in neutral
For fucks sake Scott, get some therapy man.
Scott convinced Lucas it was the right thing to do, and when Lucas told him to go talk to Zeke, Scott clearly ignored what Zeke said and acted rather than expanding the area of detonation or telling Ethan of it altogether. Scott didn’t even try here, he had decided that Zeke had to die and set things in motion to make it happen. What’s worse, unless he learns from this he will do this again. All Scott achieved here was to send Zeke back to his maker for repairs and to pick up where he left off. Or just into… Read more »
I should point out here that the bomb didn’t turn Zeke into a manikin, so he was very nearly free of the master anyway. Short of using a bazooka, this was the best way to stop Zeke from doing what he IS going to do now! Way to go Scott…
All Ethan did was to save the life of the master, and because of this the master will die. I’m willing to bet Zeke is there right now, using his workshop to repair himself, while the master’s body is leaking on the floor.
Yes, Scott is 100% in the wrong. You can’t kill anyone for what they might do. Killing someone to prevent potential hypothetical future crime is just murder. There is also the issue of whether the person in question could have done otherwise when labeling them as guilty. Guilt requires the possibility the accused could have done differently. At the time of Zeke’s enslavement, it was not able to do otherwise or it would be destroyed. Murder committed under coercion of death does not really make the person doing the killing guilty. In Zeke’s place, I would do the same. It… Read more »
Devil’s advocate:
There’s someone you know. You know he’s mentally unstable, has a history of violence. He brags that he got himself some guns, maybe even some hand grenades. He tells everyone that he’s gonna march to the school, where he’s being mobbed to go and kill everyone there.
He heads towards the school, wielding a gun in each hand.
You can stop him with a bullet to his head. Is this justified? Or does he have to kill a few kids before it’s ok to stop him?
Its not an either/or. You could point your gun at him and tell him if he tries to go into the school you will fire. You can try to reason with him. You taze him instead of shoot him. Theres a lot of things between let them do whatever they want, and kill them.
I don’t think the argument works for Greevar’s here. Note that Zeke was forced to commit crimes under coercion. Maybe taking too much glee in doing so, but one would argue that it was because of Zeke’s relationship with Grandmaster, the coercer, that lead to negative opinion on humanity. With all that said and done, the man you used as an example was clearly carrying a weapon and clearly walking to school after declaring he would shoot it up. No attempt at rehabilitation were made (no mention of it in your argument), and the man I can assume wasn’t restrained… Read more »
Declaring that you’re going to do something violent and take action that clearly implies that you are going to carry out that threat is not the same thing and assuming someone with a violent history is going to commit an act of violence when they’ve not even made any specific declaration to do so. In fact, Zeke was declaring something totally benign when Scott’s attempted murder was triggered.
The argument hings on a more fundamental, earlier part than “is Zeke maybe a danger to others?”. Scott’s argument is “Zeke is not a person, he’s a thing, and if somehow, he’s not a thing, he’s still not a person. At best, he’d be an trained animal/pet, and if a pet is shown to be a danger to people, then we put them down for the safety of actual people.” Ethan’s argument is “Zeke was a child soldier/hostage being forced to do wrong, let’s give them a chance to grow up before jailing them.” That’s a more fundamental disagreement than… Read more »
Can you link us to the page of the comic where Zeke heads to the school with a gun in each hand?
I can link you to the statement of the OP, where he said You can’t kill anyone for what they might do. And that’s what I responded to. There are very clear scenarios where killing something for something they didn’t do yet is the right way to go. That is the reason why something like “self defence” exists. If someone attacks you, even if they haven’t killed you yet, you are allowed to defend yourself. To scale the level down a bit: Most legal systems in the world don’t only punish completed crimes, but also failed attempts. In about all… Read more »
Well, one thing Ethan forgets to check on himself; why didnt he consult others of getting zeke out of cellar to visit shop, if recall, promise was that Zeke stays in cellar
True. He unilaterally decided to change/break the rules. Had he announced what he was planning to do, probably none of that would have happened.
They were closed and he didn’t see the harm in that mundane action. After all, they’d agreed to give ZK access to all sorts of other resources, what harm could him stepping out temporarily into the shop floor cause?
It’s not like he agreed to let ZK out of the building entirely.
He had no way of knowing that some kind of perimeter protection system had been put into place.
And Scott had no way of knowing that the hard limit, that they agreed on, was going to be broken.
That this is stirring up such a great discussion in and out of the fourth wall is a hallmark of a good author. Well done!
Scott is making fair arguments, but he’s still ultimately in the wrong. His reasons and motivations make sense, but he went with his gut and kept the others out of it. It’s only because Lucas interrogated Scott that he was even aware as well! Even when Lucas asked him to, Scott wouldn’t budge from his position, let alone TRY to. He just PRETENDED to.
I still attest Scott is no villain, nor will he walk that path (or even be an anti-hero). But his grief is consuming him so much that he needs a professional to help him.
Scott had no intention of disabling the bomb, ever. He had no intention of ever letting Zeke go, because the chance they’d kill was too much for Scott to risk. If we take both those ideas as he presents, absolutes that would never change, then how could things have happened differently? Did he really expect zeke to just willingly stay in the back for eternity? And if he never allowed that zeke would achieve humanity or be safe, wouldn’t it be more noble to just end things quickly rather than carry on a pretense? No, the part Scott is leaving… Read more »
I’m glad people aren’t griping that this is too serious of a topic for a comic, like with the arc that spawned the Loss meme. This isn’t a case of “bad things happen and it sucks”, it’s a very thought-provoking argument with a strong case on both sides.
“Better to eliminate a perceived threat and be wrong, than to have the perceived threat prove itself a threat”
…justifies Zeke eliminating humankind.
Way to argue against the continued existence of humanity (in every sense of the word) Scott
It’s also the point of view Deathblood has.
We’re making progress!!!
I’m surprised Scott hasn’t used a specific argument. Originally he threw around the fear of Rise of the Machines. That every government and supervillain would start hunting Zeke so they could have an army of autonomous drones. And that would end badly regardless of whether the droids broke free.
Which… while I don’t agree with that framing… I can understand the fear.
Zeke could be a Commander Data; benign and wanting to expand himself. Or he could become SkyNet.
Oh it’s worse than that, Ethan. Scott did let Lucas in on the discussion, and then started completely ignoring and lying to Lucas when he didn’t like what Lucas had to say.
Congratulations. You have possibly saved the lives of all the the people zeke may have gone on to kill had you not intervened.
Congratulations. You are also responsible for convincing a potential AI singularity that humanity is completely irredeemable and is deserving of wholesale slaughter.
SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!
What Scott did wasn’t exactly wrong. The real mistake was not telling ANYONE. Had Zeke disobeyed the terms and escaped on their own, well, it would be different. Not informing Lucas or Ethan was not only wrong, it was dangerous. Suppose there was an emergency and either called Zeke for support. Scott didn’t had to even negotiate “I put a bomb of this thing if it leaves. Im not asking Im INFORMING”.
Oh please close this Arc in a good way before xmas, pleeeaaasse!
Is anyone else sensing an element of schizophrenia in this?
I mean; Tim’s currently arguing both positions with equal vigour.
That… is an amazingly good question, and one I am shocked Ethan thought to ask.
I shouldn’t be, though. Ethan’s good people.
But I hope Scott is, too.