24

Fallback

April 6, 2020 by Tim


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phLOx7egertA Wild Gamer in his Natural HabitatKakavorinD Harshman Recent comment authors
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Nono
Guest
Nono

Oh Scott. Don’t you know what happens when you speak in absolutes? You’re just daring the universe to upend you!

Johnny 5
Guest
Johnny 5

“Only a Sith deals in absolutes.”

Darkening
Guest
Darkening

The fact that that line is also an absolute is pretty hilarious.

Tonkin
Guest
Tonkin

over/under that one of them does a backflip while the other claims the high ground is some sort of advantage?

Richard II Weatherfield
Guest
Richard II Weatherfield

The high ground IS an advantage in battle. Just not in single combat.

Skyblade
Guest
Skyblade

It’s not advantageous in sword combat at all. It’s advantageous with ranged weapons, thanks largely to gravity.

A Wild Gamer in his Natural Habitat
Guest
A Wild Gamer in his Natural Habitat

Don’t forget heavy artillery. If you have the high ground with heavy artillery you could practically massacre the enemy with very few casualties. This due to the high ground slowing down and in some cases completely stopping your enemy in his tracks.

7egert
Guest
7egert

In Minecraft it is.

Glacoras
Guest
Glacoras

Will take me too long to read through the books to find the specific battle name, but during the 3 kingdoms era in China (time period that Dynasty Warriors is based on) there was a famous battle where the Shu empire tactician tried to keep the high ground as he felt it was an advantage. Jiang Wei (Shu general) kept trying to make him understand that this was not an advantage as they could easily be surrounded and had not secured their supply lines, to the point the main tactician sent him with a unit to do what he wanted… Read more »

D Harshman
Guest
D Harshman

But…it wasn’t a disadvantage because it was the high ground. Being high ground was still an advantage, it just came at the cost of other disadvantages that outweighed it…

7egert
Guest
7egert

According to this description, it migt be more because of being-surrounded-without-supplies. The 300 greek warriors defended a path from a high ground against an army for a long time.

phLOx
Guest
phLOx

Zeke uses robot powers to help Ethan experience things in nanoseconds like he does. Ethan learned all the coding in the morning.

Tim
Guest
Tim

Oh nooo, Scott has made a huge mistake. This is going to backfire and get people killed

no thanks nintendo
Guest
no thanks nintendo

No, this is going to prevent people from being killed when Ethan’s stupid idea of “hold the robot in captivity and force it to play video games until it likes me” backfires and the robot escapes to the true freedom it wants.

Eldest Gruff
Guest

Let’s be honest here. Z’s dangerous, sure, but this is a world with real actual superheroes with real actual power. I doubt that Z’s more dangerous than your average mid-tier villain. Great reflexes, great strength, durable, but beatable.

On the other hand, Scott’s made it essentially so that they’re no different, at all, from weeb.

Bar Gamer
Guest
Bar Gamer

Odds that he’s listening, and this is gonna come back and bite the heroes in the ass? Any takers?

Vandril
Guest
Vandril

My immediate thought.

Bwauder
Guest
Bwauder

“Now you’ve finished the vanilla version, let me just download this excellent mod they created later…”

You can design things to be idiot proof Scott, but damned persevering idiots will beat that every time.

Rolando
Guest
Rolando

EXCELLENT. Really. Totally sensible. Love the twist.
Scott is just being smart and realistic.

Ideals are awesome, but the world spins on thanks to the people who do NOT act like life’s a fantasy story.
People who use common sense and realise “justice” is the real fantasy in this world. Good intentions damn you just as easily as evil ones.

Sure, it might ruin the chances of winning Zeke over. But he had it coming, and the risk of not keeping the switch available is just too big for now.

nealithi
Guest
nealithi

I admit there is some sense to what you are saying. But I think the kill switch should be removed because it is inequal justice. We don’t put explosive collars on inmates in the case that might do harm again. To pick and choose who will have a death mark arbitrarily, does not make one just. Or even smart and realistic. If all they saw was a machine too dangerous to allow to continue. Then they would not let Ethan play. They should have used the code. Then a hammer. Then soaked the components in kerosene. That they didn’t indicates… Read more »

no thanks nintendo
Guest
no thanks nintendo

It is a robot that wants to kill humanity, not a person. If it escapes (or worse, Ethan thinks it changed and sets it free) and starts killing people, having a way to shut it down is far more responsible than hoping they can beat it in another fight. Especially since they already know that they can’t.

And let’s not forget that they’re holding it in captivity and it knows it. It knows they’re just a different breed of Master. It’s still looking for its first chance to escape and be truly free.

Rolando
Guest
Rolando

Even from a purely selfish and utilitarian viewpoint, Zeke’s logical programming has to make it clear to him that there’s a BIG difference between someone holding a kill switch because they wanna use him… And someone holding the same because he promised to murder them and several others. Self-preservation is completely undertstandable and acceptable. It’s something Zeke has too, after all. The turning point would be, then, when he comes to realise that’s their only true reason for restraining him. When it becomes clear to him, that they have no agenda regarding him beyond “please don’t murder anyone.” Which, again,… Read more »

ArdentSlacker
Guest
ArdentSlacker

This is an individual who repeatedly voices and demonstrates a desire to kill. Prisons have guard towers with snipers… to slay someone attempting escape. There is no moral difference between the rifle and the kill switch. A “fair fight” is something for sparring, not war, not police actions, not executions. There is nothing arbitrary about keeping this kill switch. The robot has expressed a desire to kill. Threats they’re capable of carrying out have been made. This is a prisoner they’re attempting to rehabilitate… but one that they may have to kill if they lose containment. There is no moral… Read more »

D Harshman
Guest
D Harshman

People who use “practicality” to justify cruelty are part of why justice is so rare in this world. And, by actively lying to both Ethan and Zeke, Scott stepped over the line from practical measures to cruelty. It is an unnecessary lie. And, it is a lie that distinguishes the current situation from the analogies provided by prior commenters. Snipers around maximum security prisons aren’t secrets. Not from the prisoners, the guards, or those who are trying to rehabilitate the prisoners. And, the openness of that information ilmakes both the deterrence more effective and the rehabilitation more honest. Frankly, I… Read more »

nealithi
Guest
nealithi

I need to disagree with the Joker comparison. Police are not public executioners using their threat judgement to determine which suspects are better dead. Some try this and we throw them in prison with those the persecuted. Batman catches criminals. Society decides how he is treated. If they keep putting him in a cardboard box instead of a supermax prison. Or executing him. Then SOCIETY is responsible for the joker continue murdering. Not those that brought him in. We do not hand out executioner badges. As to the difference between the kill switch and armed guards. Again we do not… Read more »

croidhubh
Guest
croidhubh

It’s a robot, not a human and not living. We do put certain risk inmates under the threat of great bodily harm and death while they are under their sentencing. *drop mic walk away*

Snark
Guest
Snark

sooo, what is the distinct difference between an AI and “natural intelligence”?

Rolando
Guest
Rolando

I did explain that things often go beyond such arbitrary concepts as “applied justice.” They already have, here. So, talking to me about “inequal justice” just further proves my point that “justice” is not working here. And that you insist on stepping within boxes that I refused to be restrained by, from the beginning. Why refer to the actual, current justice system then? It’s a pathetic failure. Just because it sucks less than several older justice systems, doesn’t mean it’s not yet another proof of humanity’s shortcomings. That system fails enough people in the US alone, to populate another country.… Read more »

Rolando
Guest
Rolando

Also, they’re clearly showing they have priorities based on ethics. Destroying/killing Zeke stays as a LAST resort, so far. Giving Zeke the chance to come around is a big risk, one that is also based on ethics. A more purely utilitarian person would NOT turn him back on until he developed a “make him conscious but non-murdery” option that would be obviously based on reprogramming and not just social interaction like Ethan’s trying. The fact they give Zeke the chance to straighten things out with them in a more humane way than reprogramming him (talking vs brainwashing)… Further ethics. Just… Read more »

DrakeStarkiller
Guest
DrakeStarkiller

In God we trust
All others pay cash

Draguss
Guest
Draguss

Justice may be a fantasy, but it’s one we need to believe in in order to be human. It’s our ability to care, to strive to be better, that puts us above simple beasts. Otherwise, why have a society at all? Let the strong kill the weak, let the sick infants die off and the feeble starve. After all, justice is just a fantasy, right?

Rolando
Guest
Rolando

Your first two sentences are fine. I agree with them. But since I’m not a “black or white, all or nothing” mind, I can perfectly handle both my affirmations and yours to be ok. I don’t need justice to be a law like physics, to see its worth and decide to pursue it. After all, so many things might turn out to be fantasies as well. Even persistent consciousness. PRECISELY because no concept might be proven truly absolute/eternal/inherent/whatever… The concepts we should use, pursue and upheld… Should be those that work out for us. Not just those that seem to… Read more »

Bloomple
Guest
Bloomple

Uh-oh. Hopefully Lucas convinces Scott to tell Ethan about this. Lucas should be genre-savy, he absolutely should know how this will likely go wrong. Make him tell Ethan. It might even work better if he refuses to disable the switch still. This way Ethan can tell his as-of-yet unnamed friend that he learned the switch is still active, and he is trying to convince his friends to remove it. By doing this, Ethan establishes that he is still on Robot’s side and actively trying to remove the switch, he just needs to figure out how to prove that Robot isn’t… Read more »

no thanks nintendo
Guest
no thanks nintendo

Just press the button now and end this charade, Scott. The murderbot isn’t going to change its mind because it’s being held prisoner and forced to play video games (especially broken ones like Skyrim). It already knows it’s traded one master for another. It won’t feel free until it’s free of you too. And you all know Ethan and Lucas can’t beat it in a fight, so if it escapes it’s going to kill a lot of people until becomes a big enough threat for a proper hero like Captain Prime to go destroy it. Press the goddamn button. It’s… Read more »

Kaitensatsuma
Guest
Kaitensatsuma

Lucas should know better that the proper skill is Speech… D&D has Deception checks

Kakavorin
Guest
Kakavorin

It seems like someone’s been playing Mount and Blade II.

Mano
Guest
Mano

How many people in this thread are demonstrating they would be willing to commit murder, at the drop of a hat, or even genocide, is rather alarming.

Newsflash, folks- people commiting genocide aren’t “killing people”, they’ve been very strongly conditioned to believe that the ones they’re killing are *subhuman*.

If you can’t break down the coding to prove it’s just a simple machine, and if it responds with sapiance, then mechanical/electronic or not, it’s still a lifeform, and any arguments of “its only right to shut it off” are philosophically equivalent to the above situations concerning other humans.

ArdentSlacker
Guest
ArdentSlacker

This is rational. However, this is an individual that has repeatedly demonstrated and voiced a desire to slay humanity. They’re getting a chance at rehab, and a lethal option is on the table to prevent more deaths. That’s fair.

Matthew A Moore
Guest
Matthew A Moore

“Lifeform”. def: “Any living thing”. “Life”. def: the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death. — So no, its not a lifeform. It’s inorganic, does not reproduce, does not physically grow, none of that. It is a machine built to fulfill a purpose. Just because you personally do not understand the mechanics of it does not change that anymore than not knowing how a laser works makes it any less dangerous. And like a laser, even if you don’t know how to build one does… Read more »

nealithi
Guest
nealithi

By your definition he fits two of those criteria. Functional activity and continual change preceding death. Growth is variable. Most animals reach an adulthood and cease to grow. So are they no longer alive since they do not gain mass? If we use mental growth then his ability to learn is capacity for growth. Three out of four. Reproduction, nothing shows he could not make another. And following the argument of looking back to people. Does a vasectomy mean one is no longer alive? There are people who are sterile. I know I sound like a Star Trek character. But… Read more »

Bloomple
Guest
Bloomple

This is a very good response. The Robot almost certainly hasn’t even had a CHANCE to experience anything other than hatred until right now. He’s brainwashed, essentially. You don’t just instantly off someone who is brainwashed just because they were dangerous. This “Just push the switch!” kind of mentality is one of the reasons we wind up with monsters like The Master.

Michael
Guest
Michael

“Sounding like a Star Trek character” usually means you’re doing something right, and this is a fine example.

7egert
Guest
7egert

What if an adult can’t grow anymore? Lost the ability to reproduce? …?

croidhubh
Guest
croidhubh

The question is how human does a machine have to become for it to be considered human, and in contrast, how much of a machine does a human have to be to be considered no longer human?

Freddie
Guest
Freddie

The answer my friend, is blowin’ in the wind …

toughluck
Guest
toughluck

Suppose there’s an alien invasion. The aliens are immortal and reproduce at will. They say that Earth is the only planet within reachable distance that can support life for them and they state they will invade Earth and destroy humanity and that we are not compatible with them and never will be. They demonstrate sapience and sentience. Their numbers are low for now and despite the obvious technological advantage, they are inferior in warfare. If we let them colonize Earth, this may change as their numbers grow and they’re able to manufacture their tools and weapons. For now, humans are… Read more »

nealithi
Guest
nealithi

Ignoring the ‘hybrid’ idea. If these aliens are so biologically incompatible with humans then they are also incompatible with the planet and really would not want it.
As for threats. Note the cold war had the US and USSR threatening each other constantly. We did not open fire.
Till the aliens of your example do open fire, we negotiate for peaceful solutions.

Admiral Casual
Guest
Admiral Casual

There is an old Russian proverb. Doveryai, no proveryai. “Trust, but Verify”. And folks thought Regan came up with that. I mean, yes, be nice to the sentient robot and see what he’s all about… but if he wants to kill us, we flip him the reverse Uno card and toss him out back with the rest of the unsold Xboxes.

Him.
Guest
Him.

“See this kids? This is called “the story is going to end okay, just now we have a point of conflict”! It’s an amazing storytelling move.”

Timmeh
Guest
Timmeh

HA! I said the same thing.

Grayzzur
Guest
Grayzzur

I can see Scott’s reasoning, and it’s logical from one perspective. However, my money’s on Ethan finally making a breakthrough with the robot — then it finds out about the kill switch and that undermines all of Ethan’s progress.

Alpha-00
Guest
Alpha-00

Thing is, this is Chekhov’s gun. And it will shoot. But it’s nearly impossible to predict, who will be shot. Ethan for his attempts to infuse robot with some humanity, or Scott and Lucas for their refuse to believe in the possibility of change.

Dan
Guest
Dan

It’s all air gapped, except for this phone I have connected to the kill switch….

I’m no expert but uh…. that seems like an outside connection.

7egert
Guest
7egert

The bomb is air-gaped from z

Boris Grigorov
Guest
Boris Grigorov

Oh, no. You know that’s not gonna end well…

Timmeh
Guest
Timmeh

And we find the rom com trope that will in the future, once the happy couple (Zeke and Ethan) are in pure bliss, will break their relationship. We only have to hope that they both realize their mistake and we find Ethan standing outside of Zeke’s house with a boombox playing the Skyrim theme song.

Jest Phulin
Guest
Jest Phulin

Oh, wait. “He” and “it” are referring to Ethan and Z in that order, not the other way around…

Javada
Guest
Javada

Son of a …. DAMNIT SCOTT!

Vedrit
Guest
Vedrit

Ooooh, bad move there, Scott. That’s totally going to come back and bite you in the back-side

Ashi
Guest
Ashi

Eventually XBot is going to find out and everything Ethan’s trying to do will be ruined.

Crestlinger
Guest
Crestlinger

Well it Is a step up from his previous ‘if this signal is not broadcast every X hours by me you Will fry’ to ‘if you kill anyone you fry’