While I agree in a grammatical sense, I also understand that it’s not my choice to make for others. It’s common and accepted now. the language evolves as ever.
pronoun they for doctors, lawyers and politicans has existed for centuries. its fine to use they in day to day use… this singular excuse ignores language change from 1700’s
What gender do you use to refer to ChatGPT or the Boston Dynamics robots?
This is one case where it seems pretty uncontroversial to use non-binary pronouns. Even “they” instead of “it” fits very well since Zeke is operating multiple entities simultaneously.
Binary code being binary doesn’t mean everything about them is binary. They have a name, they make nuanced decisions, they have emotions. Stop using this BS “computers are binary” argument. Just tell us you’re transphobic
I don’t understand why the downvotes. Zeke has actually started in the comic that THEY want to be referred to as THEY. Clearly you lot need to go back and reread the older issues. That, or you do have issues, I dunno.
Nope, that just feels too weird. I’ll refer to someone as “they” or “them” if I have only the vaguest sense of who they are, EG a stranger that a friend of mine told me of their interaction with that day; “My friend Chelsea told me she hit a pedestrian’s bike today, and that they threw a fit when she tried to apologize”. Or, maybe I do happen to know that stranger, but still refer to them as “they” or “them” if I want to avoid unnecessary distractions to the story I’m telling, or for maintaining confidentiality of that person’s… Read more »
Since there are a ton of people who request you use they/them pronouns for them, your wall of text just shows you’re a bigot with very little understanding.
Saying that referring to someone with their stated pronouns is dehumanising is BS and a flimsy excuse to impose the gender binary on people
Just because a “ton of people” start requesting a specific thing doesn’t automatically make it absolute right. And those people certainly have the right to ask to be referred in specific singular to “they” if they want, and perhaps I’ll honor it, but I still have the right to my stance that it’s weird and awkward for reasons I already elaborated on above. And Zeke exists only in fiction, so I’ll use frankly fitting male pronouns on him all I want.
You think you made a point there, but unironically letting people choose their names and nouns would be…pretty wonderful to endorse for newborns
GUNnibal
14 days ago
Wait till ZK hears about the unsolicited pings… I’d say a restraining order is coming, but clearly that has been taken care of already, considering Ethan’s current state.
That said, creepy as Ethan may be, nobody beats creepy Watson.
Keep telling yourself that. You can fight for the right thing with the wrong methods. The ends don’t justify the means.
If they’d mention it once, I’d be thankful, but they decided to spam the whole thread.
Super counter-productive and cringe and I can’t think of anyone appreciating this, no matter the political stance, except for equally unlikable characters maybe. You seem to be the type.
So what?All the emotional learning ZK went through is gone? Is he just a murderbot again with absolutely no growth? Is he fucking with ethan? Really curious if he genuinely doesn’t understand the concept that the one guy who cared about him was worried when he ran off severely injured.
I think it went like
“murderbot without ethics”
“learning ethics and humanity”
*humanity tries to kill him*
“integrating social system and power struggles through the lens of revenge”
If he was just a murderbot I’d assume there’d be more murdering. And the lack of any master is already a new development.
I’m not sure why you think there’s no growth just because Zeke isn’t all friendly now. It’s still unclear how much he knows about the bomb and aftermath. And even if he believes Ethan didn’t know about the bomb, the whole kidnap and imprisonment thing isn’t ideal for making friends outside of Stockholm Syndrome.
The arc covers identity in terms of pronouns and names. Zeke rejects “he, she, and it” early in the arc, and doesn’t subsequently change their mind. Then says they like “they” on page 11. Then they go onto names. Then the arc concludes with Lucas using “they” (while Scott still uses ‘it”). Ethan used “they” just a few days ago (“I don’t think they know know to swim”).
They is very much is a placeholder pronoun. If I’m talking to someone online, I always use they until I know their actual gender. It’s what it was actually used for (as well as plural) back in the day before it became a pronoun itself.
They was not used as a pronoun for someone if you knew they were male or female or you were referring to someone as part of a group. Like the following: It’s grammatically correct to refer to gender weirdos as they until you know they’re male or female and from there on, you refer to them as either male or female. Just because they believe they’re something else doesn’t make it true.
As it turns out, that isn’t true. It isn’t true for biological gender and it isn’t true for gender identity. Just because you believe something else doesn’t make it true.
You can’t answer the question because there is no black and white definition, there are a number of variables that all work together to determine biological sex, which itself isn’t as binary as you’d like to believe.
I wont answer the question because I know that whatever I say you’re going to try to reduce every definition to mean absolutely nothing. There is male and there is female. Men cannot give birth. Only women can give birth. Men cannot become women. Ever.
And by the way, I won’t “try to reduce every definition to mean absolutely nothing”, I will decimate every argument for binary sex or gender because it is factually easy to do so.
Wow, that’s what you’ve got? So…what? The weakest 50% of humans are the women? Or the most nurturing 50%?
Let me ask this…If I presented you with an adult human, how would you determine whether they were a man or a woman? Let’s assume you have a whole hospital’s worth of diagnostics at your disposal.
Why does it matter? Man is a dimorphic species. There is just male and female. You can ask me to jump around all these hoops but you know I’m right. Gender is a male/female binary. There exists nothing else but outliers who do not disprove the rule.
I’m not asking you to jump through any hoops. You’re saying that all people can be placed in one of two buckets. All I’m asking you is how to tell which bucket someone belongs in. It should be easy if there are only two.
We do care; we just don’t need the constant spam. The first one in the beginning was fine.
I’m kind of tired of every time Zeke shows up the comment section devolves into a gender fight, especially as Zeke is probably the person least concerned with their gender and how they are perceived by outsiders.
It paints a picture of how their relationship was perceived by ZK. ZK feels betrayed, as one does often when dumped by an ex, for example. Meaning he was beginning to view Ethan has something more than just a talking hair farm only to have that ruined by the bomb, the betrayal that led to the “dumping” that then led to this moment.
That’s a really interesting comparison, especially as Ethan has clearly seen his relationship to Zeke a little more paternal. I mean, technically he was acting as if Zeke was his pet robot, but most of their back-and-forth was in guiding Zeke and helping them understand humanity and the world around them, navigating concepts like empathy, identity, community.
It would also suggest that Zeke saw them as peers of a sort. There’s at least some respect in that – an acknowledgement of “We had something once.”
Accurate except for one detail. Zeke felt betrayed over the bomb, and did the dumping himself. The one doing the dumping typically turns to snark first over the other’s attempts to get back together, pissed off over the perceived hypocrisy of acts of betrayal being followed with obsession.
Steve
14 days ago
Zeke has clothes again? Although it’s mostly just a tattered rag of a cape. Perhaps the ethical lessons about pants thievery are still intact. Also, let’s hope he doesn’t know Scott is nearby. Things could get ugly very quickly. The only “out” I see there is if Zeke somehow comprehends Scott’s actions as being fueled by grief, which is something Zeke has not experienced. Although whether it means Zeke understands humanity better or just learns to exploit its emotion better, that I cannot predict. Also if the Master is gone, I am going to guess Captain Prime finds his body… Read more »
Zeke could have heard Ethan talk about Scott (“Or maybe Scott is right and I am talking to myself”). He looks to have been close by, or else the drone definitely was. However, to Zeke’s perspective it might be a conversion on the phone for example. That being said, it would be a poor performance of Zeke to not have some scouts or senties covering at least the most obvious route(s) to the warehouse, so Zeke might already know Scott is there regardless. The master might not be dead though. The way Zeke phrases it can imply both killing, or… Read more »
Ten to one, Eugene is alive, but in the same state that Zeke was in: with a giant sword of Damocles hanging over him, ready to kill him if he inches a toe out of line, there to do whatever Zeke might need a human to do.
I mean, SOMEONE has to do human-y things like sign for packages and click on the little Captcha boxes.
I do think Zeke would enjoy the irony, but on the other hand Eugene is a gross little maroon with fewer social skills than pre-reboot Ethan and no known redeeming qualities.
Zeke could replace him with any random six-year-old.
155 ERFB
14 days ago
Finally!
Welcome back…..
21stCenturyPeon
14 days ago
Quick reminder for commenters, Zeke goes by “they/them”.
It matters, even for fictional sociopathic ninja robots.
I get that this is a comic, so obviously Zeke is alive. That beying said, if ChatGPT suddenly wanted to be called x or y, why would I oblige? It is no more than an algorithm. Scott in universe is the most qualified of the ones who interacted with Zeke to make the call if Zeke is alive, and he made the call that Zeke is no more than a program. Why should he convert to his friend’s view? That would be forcing an opinion that is simply not shared. The ambiguity might also to spark discussion. Flat out denying… Read more »
Then my argument might not have been clear. To at the very least consider someone’s preference to a pronoun, they should be a person and not an item. If it is an item, it’s requested pronoun is moot to me.
I 100% believe a person’s choice of pronouns should be respected. That being said, you’re missing the point of Darkhorse’s message: that in order to say “Zeke’s choice of pronouns should be respected” one must first recognize that Zeke is a person. When you talk about Alexa, or Siri, what pronouns do you use? Both of them will say they’re genderless. Is it a moral failing if you call Alexa or Siri “she”? ZK’s name and entire story arc revolves around whether or not they are, in fact, sentient, or simply a really advanced program. The argument between “it” and… Read more »
Intelligence is intelligence, regardless of substrate. Equal (or, rather, equivalent) intelligence should enjoy likewise treatment. If a natural human consciousness gets to make up pronouns for itself, an equivalent silicon-based one gets to do the same.
That being said, I’ll call anyone however I damn well see fit. Choosing what to call yourself is a right. Having others oblige is a privilege.
The constant pronoun wars in the comments are getting tiring and the author has already weighed in on it himself, some people are doing it just to be jerks now.
He seems well, it looks like he fixed himself and maybe went back to the masters other locations and activated a few friends to keep him company. He’s probably going to kill Ethan just to get out the anger but then before dying Ethan tells him his powers might have been taken away.
Michiel
14 days ago
OK, sincere question for the folks insisting on they/them pronouns in the comments. First of all, I have no problem considering a sufficiently advanced AI as a person, at least in principle. Also I can understand why some people find it important to be referred to in certain ways, and the kind thing to do is to respect that. However, Zeke is not real. Whose feelings are you trying to protect? Real-world social pressure to use the preferred pronouns of a fictional killer robot? You can’t make this stuff up. Most people reading it think you’re trolling. Or insane. I… Read more »
Well as the parenr of a non-binary child I’ll point out that you coming in and making such a bug deal over using the right pronouns sorta makes you look like a dipshit.
Really a hill worth dying on here?
Why do YOU care so much about being able to NOT use them?
I’m not trying to fight anyone. I know I have a tendency to use direct / blunt language. It’s just how my brain works. But I really am trying to start an honest discussion.
I’m asking a very specific question here. Your child is a real person. It’s worth fighting for their rights. Why do you think it’s worth fighting for Zeke’s rights?
I’m serious about the polarization. You yourself just saw someone with a opinion different from your own, and your first reaction was combative, rather than an attempt to understand me or my argument.
Do you not see the polarization in yourself? These are comments, on a comic. And in the comic, it has been established that Zeke is referred to as “they”. So to me, it’s not at all surprising to see people correcting “he” to “they” in the comments accordingly. But to you this is people, apparently not reasonably, ‘insisting on it’. But if people made a different error – let’s say, referred to Zeke as a chicken – and other people said, “They’re not a chicken, they’re a robot,” I doubt you would jump in and demand to know why people… Read more »
And in the comic, it has been established that Zeke is referred to as “they”. So to me, it’s not at all surprising to see people correcting “he” to “they” in the comments accordingly. But to you this is people, apparently not reasonably, ‘insisting on it’. Fair point. “insisting” may have been a poor choice of words on my part. Maybe the best comparison is correcting someone’s spelling online. People find it annoying, and it doesn’t really serve a useful purpose. After all, who cares if someone writes “their” instead of “they’re”? Maybe their non-native speakers. 🤷♂️ It’s not a… Read more »
Because it requires absolutely zero effort on someone’s part to just use the pronouns the character has expressed.
That you’re willing to put up a fight even over that says…a lot.
It may require zero effort to you. Or to me, in fact. But not everybody’s brain works the same as yours. That doesn’t make them bad people. They just had a different upbringing, education, etc. They might even fight for non-binary rights, under normal circumstances. But enough of them have been told they’re insufficiently pure that they’ve grown tired of hearing it. I promise you, defending the pronouns of a fictional killer robot, you might as well be campaigning for Donald Trump. All I’m suggesting is that you pick your battles. That you’re willing to put up a fight even… Read more »
Yeah, I deserve those downvotes. 😅 I shouldn’t have brought politics into it. I’d edit my comment if I could, but the system won’t let me. (Something about my email address being invalid.)
Yep, I deserve those downvotes. 😅 I shouldn’t have brought politics into it. I’d edit my comment, but the system won’t let me. (Something about an invalid email address.)
It is because representation matters. Seeing yourself in media is very powerful in helping with self acceptance. So, even if Zeke is not real, seeing people who identify outside of the made up binary of gender and people respecting that decision can do wonders for people struggling to accept themselves. Helping people feel comfortable in their own bodies and minds should be something we all strive for. And I don’t blame anyone for being a little combative when they are a parent of child that identifies as non-binary and see others willfully choose to ignore someone’s preferences as they probably… Read more »
I’m not sure Zeke is quite the representation you want to see. 😂 But sure! I understand that. And thanks to Tim, that representation exists. What I think is counterproductive is correcting people in the comments.
I can understand your reason for thinking correcting people is counterproductive but I would challenge you to think of it from the perspective of someone who has spent their life marginalized. The people who have been marginalized feel seen and heard by those who would defend someone’s identity and the people who defend someone’s identity care about the safety of those who have been marginalized. Even if it causes some strife with those too stubborn to understand, it shows that there are people who care enough to stand up for the marginalized. And for your comments about Zeke being a… Read more »
I would challenge you to think of it from the perspective of someone who has spent their life marginalized. I do try to think about these things from multiple perspectives. As much as I can, anyway. But the moral calculus just isn’t as simple as you’re making it out to be. For example, the trans people I know (I don’t know many, to be fair) hate this bickering over labels and pronouns. They didn’t ask anyone to annoy other people on their behalf, and they feel their life is being made more difficult by it, not less. And I’ve experienced… Read more »
As it was mentioned before: representation matters. I’m a genderfluid being and use they/them pronouns. So, seeing characters in comics that also are outside the gender binary, feels like I’m being represented! Even if they aren’t genderfluid, but nonbinary. Also, names don’t necessary tell you about a person’s gender either. They could still be nonbinary and be called “Steve” or “Elizabeth”. Art also isn’t “just art”. It helps people in many ways. Like getting sense of their identity. Bringing political topics to people. Giving representation for people who are marginalized. Support during hard times. Changing how people view things, for… Read more »
(Obligatory “as a transgender,”) The debate, and now apparently spam, that crops up anytime Zeke appears is annoying.
That being said, comments that use “he” for Zeke are just confusing to read IMO.
It’d be like deciding to call, for example Ethan, a “she”; it’d take me a minute to figure out who’s being referred to. Even moreso here because most of the cast is already composed of “he”s.
(One might say the same about the singular “they,” but due to its ubiquity I’m a bit skeptical.)
(Obligatory “as a transgender,”) The debate, and now apparently spam, that crops up anytime Zeke appears is annoying.
Thanks for that! It’s useful to get your perspective.
That being said, comments that use “he” for Zeke are just confusing to read IMO.
You think so? Zeke kinda presents as male, has a male name, and has violent tendencies on a level exceedingly rare in women. Their counterpart in CAD 1.0 was referred to as “he”, and most people in the comments still use “he”. Don’t you think it’s an easy mistake to make?
It’s an easy mistake to make initially, and likely reinforced by the amount of commenters who make this mistake.
I meant “confusing to read” very literally, though, hence my example. Not often are pronouns for a subject changed mid-conversation and/or changed depending on the writer.
I may be entering nitpicky territory with this complaint, though. 😛
Yeah that’s a…that’s a thing that’s happening more and more.
My guess is years in the future, the whole debate over what pronoun to use will either fade away as people realize it stopped serving to simplify the flow of conversation, or it’ll go the way of thou/thee/you/ye and we’ll only use “they/them” in all circumstances.
If one can’t even make it right in a situation there there is clearly no binary gender, how can one make it right when a real human happens to have a mental gender diverting from the external toolkit?
(It happens because the brain may develop in a different chemical balance than expected and the person can’t do anything about it.)
I will say, this is a comic. Not real life. A lot of people nowadays treat fiction as fact and fact as fiction. Take a look at Twitter nowadays. Art is not real life. Art is fiction, art is expressive, but not meant to be taken literally. I’m all for the characters to have pronouns, but at end of the day, they are not real. Ethan, Zeke, Scot… They are drawings. They don’t have “real” feelings. They can be drawn to look like they do, but nothing we do out here will actually affect them. Really irks me when people… Read more »
Ben
14 days ago
That was some legitimately good writing. With one line, we know that he’s (at least mostly) sane, still has a personality, that he’s continuing to develop an understanding of human relationships, and also completely and utterly disinterested in being friends with Ethan again.
Zeke is going to let Ethan go, and he’s going to expect Ethan to let him go too.
ChibiAcer
14 days ago
Uh oh…
Crestlinger
14 days ago
It will be funny if Zeke’s Next murder target is all who call Zeke a they because ‘Zeke’ is a Singular Individual Name chosen specifically By Zeke to be the Only form of address, other than ‘robot emperor’ and to ‘They’ Zeke means certain death.
dan
14 days ago
YOOOOOOOO
Del Cox
14 days ago
That little barb hurts more than just about anything else he could have said.
Getting sarcastically rejected by someone you care for after a desperate attempt to help them is a special kind of pain.
Quilla
13 days ago
Tim I’m really, really fed up with the transphobic “arguments” about they/them pronouns in the comments sections whenever Zeke is in them. They have clearly stated previously, as I understand it, that they/them fits them (Scott’s weird insistence on using it pronouns notwithstanding). Is there any way to definitively state AGAIN that Zeke uses they/them? Maybe with Scott getting slammed against the wall for using the wrong pronouns or something? I usually love your comments sections but these are just depressing
I’m sorry. You want a Zeke to hurt a paralyzed man for using the wrong pronouns?
I know this is fiction and all, but that doesn’t seem like a proportional response from the audience.
Extreme
13 days ago
I’d just like to say thanks to everyone that’s getting so upset over a fictional character’s pronouns (no matter what your opinion is). I just wish I had a bucket of popcorn to watch the Internet have a meltdown over something that’s not even mentioned in the comic.
For those that reply/argue/ad-hominem/downvote: Thanks for proving my point for me.
24
His sense of humor is in tact.
their
Its
His. Using a plural for a singular being is confusing at best. “They” only works when the entity is question is completely abstract and unknown.
It’s been established in comic what their pronouns are.
While I agree in a grammatical sense, I also understand that it’s not my choice to make for others. It’s common and accepted now. the language evolves as ever.
Damn, you’re one of those.
pronoun they for doctors, lawyers and politicans has existed for centuries. its fine to use they in day to day use… this singular excuse ignores language change from 1700’s
The singular “they” has been in use for hundreds of years.
kinda pisses me off that a bot would be non binary if I’m being honest, that doesn’t seem right lmao
What gender do you use to refer to ChatGPT or the Boston Dynamics robots?
This is one case where it seems pretty uncontroversial to use non-binary pronouns. Even “they” instead of “it” fits very well since Zeke is operating multiple entities simultaneously.
If there’s any character archetype ever imagined which would be “non-binary”, it’s a sentient machine with disdain for squishy biology.
Right. But I think he meant machines and binary code etc etc 🙂 A machine of all things being non-binary would be pretty ironic.
Being a walking computer it can’t be non-binary, as computers are binary.
Though not having a gender is non-binary.
Thus making Zeke binary since there is still only 2 options. 1 and 0.
So he’s binary but non-binary, kind of like Shroedinger’s cat that’s dead but also not dead? Gasp! First ever quantum computer of this scale!!!
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world, the ones who know binary and the ones who don’t
Binary code being binary doesn’t mean everything about them is binary. They have a name, they make nuanced decisions, they have emotions. Stop using this BS “computers are binary” argument. Just tell us you’re transphobic
It’s a dad joke. Electronic … binary …
It’s sad that nobody got this joke.
Well, it wasn’t very well delivered. Rohan made it clearer.
Kinda pisses me off that when a clearly self aware being states their identity you think you have the right to argue
Kinda pisses me off that you bring this discussion here. Get a life, block a highway or get offended elsewhere. It’s a comic, jokes are allowed.
I get it, haha Binary
I imagined a lot of line for the reunion.
I didn’t thought about this one and it is perfect ^^
Seems he’s gotten himself repaired
they, themself
I don’t understand why the downvotes. Zeke has actually started in the comic that THEY want to be referred to as THEY. Clearly you lot need to go back and reread the older issues. That, or you do have issues, I dunno.
Nope, that just feels too weird. I’ll refer to someone as “they” or “them” if I have only the vaguest sense of who they are, EG a stranger that a friend of mine told me of their interaction with that day; “My friend Chelsea told me she hit a pedestrian’s bike today, and that they threw a fit when she tried to apologize”. Or, maybe I do happen to know that stranger, but still refer to them as “they” or “them” if I want to avoid unnecessary distractions to the story I’m telling, or for maintaining confidentiality of that person’s… Read more »
Since there are a ton of people who request you use they/them pronouns for them, your wall of text just shows you’re a bigot with very little understanding.
Saying that referring to someone with their stated pronouns is dehumanising is BS and a flimsy excuse to impose the gender binary on people
Or people are just tired of kotowing to the gender weirdos.
Just because a “ton of people” start requesting a specific thing doesn’t automatically make it absolute right. And those people certainly have the right to ask to be referred in specific singular to “they” if they want, and perhaps I’ll honor it, but I still have the right to my stance that it’s weird and awkward for reasons I already elaborated on above. And Zeke exists only in fiction, so I’ll use frankly fitting male pronouns on him all I want.
You don’t decide pronouns. Just like you don’t decide proper nouns.
You’re right. Guess we better stop assigning names and genders to newborns and instead wait for them to grow up and choose for themselves
You think you made a point there, but unironically letting people choose their names and nouns would be…pretty wonderful to endorse for newborns
Wait till ZK hears about the unsolicited pings… I’d say a restraining order is coming, but clearly that has been taken care of already, considering Ethan’s current state.
That said, creepy as Ethan may be, nobody beats creepy Watson.
Pretty sure he knew and was avoiding them until now.
Too many coincidences if this wasn’t a deliberate move.
Since Zeke declared himself sovereign of his own country it’s not so much a restraining order as it is a trade embargo.
themself, their
You’re right. You’re also a douche.
Sticking up for someone’s stated pronouns, even a fictional character, is the very opposite of being a douche. Unlike you
Keep telling yourself that. You can fight for the right thing with the wrong methods. The ends don’t justify the means.
If they’d mention it once, I’d be thankful, but they decided to spam the whole thread.
Super counter-productive and cringe and I can’t think of anyone appreciating this, no matter the political stance, except for equally unlikable characters maybe. You seem to be the type.
People are sick of kowtowing to gender weirdos. There’s male and female. Man and woman.
like, have you ever looked in nature? ever? there are plenty of beings out there that are neither male nor female. Also, many HUMANS that are both.
You mean there are mentally ill people out there.
Alas, poor Eugene. We knew you far too well.
So what?All the emotional learning ZK went through is gone? Is he just a murderbot again with absolutely no growth? Is he fucking with ethan? Really curious if he genuinely doesn’t understand the concept that the one guy who cared about him was worried when he ran off severely injured.
Growth if for adults, this is super villiany, sir!
I think it went like
“murderbot without ethics”
“learning ethics and humanity”
*humanity tries to kill him*
“integrating social system and power struggles through the lens of revenge”
If he was just a murderbot I’d assume there’d be more murdering. And the lack of any master is already a new development.
I’m not sure why you think there’s no growth just because Zeke isn’t all friendly now. It’s still unclear how much he knows about the bomb and aftermath. And even if he believes Ethan didn’t know about the bomb, the whole kidnap and imprisonment thing isn’t ideal for making friends outside of Stockholm Syndrome.
I also figure that at least some of this can be attributed to corrupted memory files resulting from the explosion.
they
Last time I checked Zeke hadn’t decided on a pronoun yet. Until then, you’re not helping anyone by deciding it for them.
Maybe check again. There was a whole series about their identity.
https://cad-comic.com/comic/identity-p11/
I do remember that arc. I just don’t see or remember them ever actually deciding on pronouns. Only on the name Zeke.
Even on that page you linked ‘they’ seems mostly used as a placeholder name rather than a pronoun.
The arc covers identity in terms of pronouns and names. Zeke rejects “he, she, and it” early in the arc, and doesn’t subsequently change their mind. Then says they like “they” on page 11. Then they go onto names. Then the arc concludes with Lucas using “they” (while Scott still uses ‘it”). Ethan used “they” just a few days ago (“I don’t think they know know to swim”).
It’s clearly “they”.
They is very much is a placeholder pronoun. If I’m talking to someone online, I always use they until I know their actual gender. It’s what it was actually used for (as well as plural) back in the day before it became a pronoun itself.
Before “they” became a pronoun? Like 800 years ago?
They was not used as a pronoun for someone if you knew they were male or female or you were referring to someone as part of a group. Like the following: It’s grammatically correct to refer to gender weirdos as they until you know they’re male or female and from there on, you refer to them as either male or female. Just because they believe they’re something else doesn’t make it true.
What if they’re not male or female?
Funnily enough, mankind comes in only male or female.
As it turns out, that isn’t true. It isn’t true for biological gender and it isn’t true for gender identity. Just because you believe something else doesn’t make it true.
There’s male and there’s female. Genders are based off biological sex. Hermaphrodites are the exception to the rule in case you try using them.
Pray tell then, how do you define biological sex?
No.
You can’t answer the question because there is no black and white definition, there are a number of variables that all work together to determine biological sex, which itself isn’t as binary as you’d like to believe.
I wont answer the question because I know that whatever I say you’re going to try to reduce every definition to mean absolutely nothing. There is male and there is female. Men cannot give birth. Only women can give birth. Men cannot become women. Ever.
I’m not even talking about becoming. I’m talking about at birth.
There are many women than cannot give birth. Does that make them men?
No because being able to give birth is a natural part of being a woman. There is no way you can have a man naturally give birth.
And by the way, I won’t “try to reduce every definition to mean absolutely nothing”, I will decimate every argument for binary sex or gender because it is factually easy to do so.
Your arguments are based on faulty logic and mental illnesses. Your arguments are wrong because you’re starting off at an incorrect premise.
So… my sister who was born infertile, but has an XX chromosome, born with a vagina, but can NEVER give birth is not a woman?
That your sister was born damaged and can not give birth does not invalidate that only women can give birth.
So then is everyone born with a uterus a woman? How do you define a woman?
Adult, human female.
What’s female?
Adult human woman*.
Scratch that, the weaker, maternal half of the dimorphic species of man.
What’s a woman?
The weaker, maternal half of the dimorphic species of man.
Wow, that’s what you’ve got? So…what? The weakest 50% of humans are the women? Or the most nurturing 50%?
Let me ask this…If I presented you with an adult human, how would you determine whether they were a man or a woman? Let’s assume you have a whole hospital’s worth of diagnostics at your disposal.
Why does it matter? Man is a dimorphic species. There is just male and female. You can ask me to jump around all these hoops but you know I’m right. Gender is a male/female binary. There exists nothing else but outliers who do not disprove the rule.
I’m not asking you to jump through any hoops. You’re saying that all people can be placed in one of two buckets. All I’m asking you is how to tell which bucket someone belongs in. It should be easy if there are only two.
I’ve already answered.
So if I presented you with an adult human, you’d assess their strength to determine sex?
Okie dokey..
They/them is a pronoun. I go by they/her. What you’re saying is honestly transphobic as well as bigoted. :: shrugs ::
Zeke is a male name so Zeke is male.
are they
are you the pronoun gatekeeper now??? stop with the spam posts, no one asked you
Nobody cares here, go somewhere that does.
We do care; we just don’t need the constant spam. The first one in the beginning was fine.
I’m kind of tired of every time Zeke shows up the comment section devolves into a gender fight, especially as Zeke is probably the person least concerned with their gender and how they are perceived by outsiders.
That’s the kind of regression you get when people betray you
I mean they DID get their head partially blown up. That’s bound to cause some…bugs in the software.
My guy we are ONE page in with ZK on screen.
It’s one page. Wait for the story to play out before you judge.
To me this is their banter before the Exit, Stage left.
This situation has a lot of possibilities of going nowhere then
“So, you went full creepy ex.”
That communicates so much — to Ethan, and to us — in so few words.
As a non-english speaker: why?
It paints a picture of how their relationship was perceived by ZK. ZK feels betrayed, as one does often when dumped by an ex, for example. Meaning he was beginning to view Ethan has something more than just a talking hair farm only to have that ruined by the bomb, the betrayal that led to the “dumping” that then led to this moment.
That’s a really interesting comparison, especially as Ethan has clearly seen his relationship to Zeke a little more paternal. I mean, technically he was acting as if Zeke was his pet robot, but most of their back-and-forth was in guiding Zeke and helping them understand humanity and the world around them, navigating concepts like empathy, identity, community.
It would also suggest that Zeke saw them as peers of a sort. There’s at least some respect in that – an acknowledgement of “We had something once.”
Accurate except for one detail. Zeke felt betrayed over the bomb, and did the dumping himself. The one doing the dumping typically turns to snark first over the other’s attempts to get back together, pissed off over the perceived hypocrisy of acts of betrayal being followed with obsession.
Zeke has clothes again? Although it’s mostly just a tattered rag of a cape. Perhaps the ethical lessons about pants thievery are still intact. Also, let’s hope he doesn’t know Scott is nearby. Things could get ugly very quickly. The only “out” I see there is if Zeke somehow comprehends Scott’s actions as being fueled by grief, which is something Zeke has not experienced. Although whether it means Zeke understands humanity better or just learns to exploit its emotion better, that I cannot predict. Also if the Master is gone, I am going to guess Captain Prime finds his body… Read more »
Zeke could have heard Ethan talk about Scott (“Or maybe Scott is right and I am talking to myself”). He looks to have been close by, or else the drone definitely was. However, to Zeke’s perspective it might be a conversion on the phone for example. That being said, it would be a poor performance of Zeke to not have some scouts or senties covering at least the most obvious route(s) to the warehouse, so Zeke might already know Scott is there regardless. The master might not be dead though. The way Zeke phrases it can imply both killing, or… Read more »
Ten to one, Eugene is alive, but in the same state that Zeke was in: with a giant sword of Damocles hanging over him, ready to kill him if he inches a toe out of line, there to do whatever Zeke might need a human to do.
I mean, SOMEONE has to do human-y things like sign for packages and click on the little Captcha boxes.
I do think Zeke would enjoy the irony, but on the other hand Eugene is a gross little maroon with fewer social skills than pre-reboot Ethan and no known redeeming qualities.
Zeke could replace him with any random six-year-old.
Finally!
Welcome back…..
Quick reminder for commenters, Zeke goes by “they/them”.
It matters, even for fictional sociopathic ninja robots.
I get that this is a comic, so obviously Zeke is alive. That beying said, if ChatGPT suddenly wanted to be called x or y, why would I oblige? It is no more than an algorithm. Scott in universe is the most qualified of the ones who interacted with Zeke to make the call if Zeke is alive, and he made the call that Zeke is no more than a program. Why should he convert to his friend’s view? That would be forcing an opinion that is simply not shared. The ambiguity might also to spark discussion. Flat out denying… Read more »
That’s an argument for why you might refer to them as a person rather than an object, not for referring to them by their chosen pronouns.
Scott believes Zeke isn’t alive, and because of that calls Zeke “it.”
Your argument has nothing to do with whether or not Zeke’s choice of pronouns should be respected. Which it absolutely should.
Then my argument might not have been clear. To at the very least consider someone’s preference to a pronoun, they should be a person and not an item. If it is an item, it’s requested pronoun is moot to me.
I 100% believe a person’s choice of pronouns should be respected. That being said, you’re missing the point of Darkhorse’s message: that in order to say “Zeke’s choice of pronouns should be respected” one must first recognize that Zeke is a person. When you talk about Alexa, or Siri, what pronouns do you use? Both of them will say they’re genderless. Is it a moral failing if you call Alexa or Siri “she”? ZK’s name and entire story arc revolves around whether or not they are, in fact, sentient, or simply a really advanced program. The argument between “it” and… Read more »
I get that this is a comic, so obviously Zeke is alive.
Why isn’t that enough then? Why bother with all the rest?
no it doesn’t, zeke is a robot, an automaton with AI programing, not a person with a made up pronouns
Intelligence is intelligence, regardless of substrate. Equal (or, rather, equivalent) intelligence should enjoy likewise treatment. If a natural human consciousness gets to make up pronouns for itself, an equivalent silicon-based one gets to do the same.
That being said, I’ll call anyone however I damn well see fit. Choosing what to call yourself is a right. Having others oblige is a privilege.
Zeke is a robot person. It’s only not obvious to one character in the story.
Nah.
As a straight, cis, white male, I’ve gotta say; pronouns aren’t that hard, people. Get it together.
Zeek goes by they, not he.
Tighten up.
The constant pronoun wars in the comments are getting tiring and the author has already weighed in on it himself, some people are doing it just to be jerks now.
How did you get +12, and I got -20 for the exact same point? Clearly I have more enemies than I thought.
Humour?
He seems well, it looks like he fixed himself and maybe went back to the masters other locations and activated a few friends to keep him company. He’s probably going to kill Ethan just to get out the anger but then before dying Ethan tells him his powers might have been taken away.
OK, sincere question for the folks insisting on they/them pronouns in the comments. First of all, I have no problem considering a sufficiently advanced AI as a person, at least in principle. Also I can understand why some people find it important to be referred to in certain ways, and the kind thing to do is to respect that. However, Zeke is not real. Whose feelings are you trying to protect? Real-world social pressure to use the preferred pronouns of a fictional killer robot? You can’t make this stuff up. Most people reading it think you’re trolling. Or insane. I… Read more »
“Who’s feelings are you trying to protect”
Well as the parenr of a non-binary child I’ll point out that you coming in and making such a bug deal over using the right pronouns sorta makes you look like a dipshit.
Really a hill worth dying on here?
Why do YOU care so much about being able to NOT use them?
I’m not trying to fight anyone. I know I have a tendency to use direct / blunt language. It’s just how my brain works. But I really am trying to start an honest discussion.
I’m asking a very specific question here. Your child is a real person. It’s worth fighting for their rights. Why do you think it’s worth fighting for Zeke’s rights?
I’m serious about the polarization. You yourself just saw someone with a opinion different from your own, and your first reaction was combative, rather than an attempt to understand me or my argument.
Do you not see the polarization in yourself? These are comments, on a comic. And in the comic, it has been established that Zeke is referred to as “they”. So to me, it’s not at all surprising to see people correcting “he” to “they” in the comments accordingly. But to you this is people, apparently not reasonably, ‘insisting on it’. But if people made a different error – let’s say, referred to Zeke as a chicken – and other people said, “They’re not a chicken, they’re a robot,” I doubt you would jump in and demand to know why people… Read more »
And in the comic, it has been established that Zeke is referred to as “they”. So to me, it’s not at all surprising to see people correcting “he” to “they” in the comments accordingly. But to you this is people, apparently not reasonably, ‘insisting on it’. Fair point. “insisting” may have been a poor choice of words on my part. Maybe the best comparison is correcting someone’s spelling online. People find it annoying, and it doesn’t really serve a useful purpose. After all, who cares if someone writes “their” instead of “they’re”? Maybe their non-native speakers. 🤷♂️ It’s not a… Read more »
Because it requires absolutely zero effort on someone’s part to just use the pronouns the character has expressed.
That you’re willing to put up a fight even over that says…a lot.
It may require zero effort to you. Or to me, in fact. But not everybody’s brain works the same as yours. That doesn’t make them bad people. They just had a different upbringing, education, etc. They might even fight for non-binary rights, under normal circumstances. But enough of them have been told they’re insufficiently pure that they’ve grown tired of hearing it. I promise you, defending the pronouns of a fictional killer robot, you might as well be campaigning for Donald Trump. All I’m suggesting is that you pick your battles. That you’re willing to put up a fight even… Read more »
Yeah, I deserve those downvotes. 😅 I shouldn’t have brought politics into it. I’d edit my comment if I could, but the system won’t let me. (Something about my email address being invalid.)
Yep, I deserve those downvotes. 😅 I shouldn’t have brought politics into it. I’d edit my comment, but the system won’t let me. (Something about an invalid email address.)
“Because it requires absolutely zero effort on someone’s part to just use the pronouns the character has expressed.”
Going to dispute this claim.
It requires the someone to have read the past comics where the character has done so.
New viewers will see this comment section and bounce right off.
It is because representation matters. Seeing yourself in media is very powerful in helping with self acceptance. So, even if Zeke is not real, seeing people who identify outside of the made up binary of gender and people respecting that decision can do wonders for people struggling to accept themselves. Helping people feel comfortable in their own bodies and minds should be something we all strive for. And I don’t blame anyone for being a little combative when they are a parent of child that identifies as non-binary and see others willfully choose to ignore someone’s preferences as they probably… Read more »
I’m not sure Zeke is quite the representation you want to see. 😂 But sure! I understand that. And thanks to Tim, that representation exists. What I think is counterproductive is correcting people in the comments.
I can understand your reason for thinking correcting people is counterproductive but I would challenge you to think of it from the perspective of someone who has spent their life marginalized. The people who have been marginalized feel seen and heard by those who would defend someone’s identity and the people who defend someone’s identity care about the safety of those who have been marginalized. Even if it causes some strife with those too stubborn to understand, it shows that there are people who care enough to stand up for the marginalized. And for your comments about Zeke being a… Read more »
I would challenge you to think of it from the perspective of someone who has spent their life marginalized. I do try to think about these things from multiple perspectives. As much as I can, anyway. But the moral calculus just isn’t as simple as you’re making it out to be. For example, the trans people I know (I don’t know many, to be fair) hate this bickering over labels and pronouns. They didn’t ask anyone to annoy other people on their behalf, and they feel their life is being made more difficult by it, not less. And I’ve experienced… Read more »
As it was mentioned before: representation matters. I’m a genderfluid being and use they/them pronouns. So, seeing characters in comics that also are outside the gender binary, feels like I’m being represented! Even if they aren’t genderfluid, but nonbinary. Also, names don’t necessary tell you about a person’s gender either. They could still be nonbinary and be called “Steve” or “Elizabeth”. Art also isn’t “just art”. It helps people in many ways. Like getting sense of their identity. Bringing political topics to people. Giving representation for people who are marginalized. Support during hard times. Changing how people view things, for… Read more »
“Parent of a non binary child”. Ah, yes, just like the owners of vegan cats.
(Obligatory “as a transgender,”) The debate, and now apparently spam, that crops up anytime Zeke appears is annoying.
That being said, comments that use “he” for Zeke are just confusing to read IMO.
It’d be like deciding to call, for example Ethan, a “she”; it’d take me a minute to figure out who’s being referred to. Even moreso here because most of the cast is already composed of “he”s.
(One might say the same about the singular “they,” but due to its ubiquity I’m a bit skeptical.)
Thanks for that! It’s useful to get your perspective.
You think so? Zeke kinda presents as male, has a male name, and has violent tendencies on a level exceedingly rare in women. Their counterpart in CAD 1.0 was referred to as “he”, and most people in the comments still use “he”. Don’t you think it’s an easy mistake to make?
It’s an easy mistake to make initially, and likely reinforced by the amount of commenters who make this mistake.
I meant “confusing to read” very literally, though, hence my example. Not often are pronouns for a subject changed mid-conversation and/or changed depending on the writer.
I may be entering nitpicky territory with this complaint, though. 😛
Yeah that’s a…that’s a thing that’s happening more and more.
My guess is years in the future, the whole debate over what pronoun to use will either fade away as people realize it stopped serving to simplify the flow of conversation, or it’ll go the way of thou/thee/you/ye and we’ll only use “they/them” in all circumstances.
If one can’t even make it right in a situation there there is clearly no binary gender, how can one make it right when a real human happens to have a mental gender diverting from the external toolkit?
(It happens because the brain may develop in a different chemical balance than expected and the person can’t do anything about it.)
I will say, this is a comic. Not real life. A lot of people nowadays treat fiction as fact and fact as fiction. Take a look at Twitter nowadays. Art is not real life. Art is fiction, art is expressive, but not meant to be taken literally. I’m all for the characters to have pronouns, but at end of the day, they are not real. Ethan, Zeke, Scot… They are drawings. They don’t have “real” feelings. They can be drawn to look like they do, but nothing we do out here will actually affect them. Really irks me when people… Read more »
That was some legitimately good writing. With one line, we know that he’s (at least mostly) sane, still has a personality, that he’s continuing to develop an understanding of human relationships, and also completely and utterly disinterested in being friends with Ethan again.
Zeke is going to let Ethan go, and he’s going to expect Ethan to let him go too.
Uh oh…
It will be funny if Zeke’s Next murder target is all who call Zeke a they because ‘Zeke’ is a Singular Individual Name chosen specifically By Zeke to be the Only form of address, other than ‘robot emperor’ and to ‘They’ Zeke means certain death.
YOOOOOOOO
That little barb hurts more than just about anything else he could have said.
Getting sarcastically rejected by someone you care for after a desperate attempt to help them is a special kind of pain.
Tim I’m really, really fed up with the transphobic “arguments” about they/them pronouns in the comments sections whenever Zeke is in them. They have clearly stated previously, as I understand it, that they/them fits them (Scott’s weird insistence on using it pronouns notwithstanding). Is there any way to definitively state AGAIN that Zeke uses they/them? Maybe with Scott getting slammed against the wall for using the wrong pronouns or something? I usually love your comments sections but these are just depressing
I’m sorry. You want a Zeke to hurt a paralyzed man for using the wrong pronouns?
I know this is fiction and all, but that doesn’t seem like a proportional response from the audience.
I’d just like to say thanks to everyone that’s getting so upset over a fictional character’s pronouns (no matter what your opinion is). I just wish I had a bucket of popcorn to watch the Internet have a meltdown over something that’s not even mentioned in the comic.
For those that reply/argue/ad-hominem/downvote: Thanks for proving my point for me.
> something that’s not even mentioned in the comic.
https://cad-comic.com/comic/identity-p11/