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2 years ago

Yes, there’s obviously no proof that climate change is happening…. Is this the right conference room for the propaganda bill?

Khaisz
Khaisz
2 years ago

oh ffs, A Slot Machine is technically a “Surprise Mechanics”, but that doesn’t make it “Not a Gambling Machine”.
I seriously hope they doesn’t get a free pass to keep Loot Boxes in games just by saying it.

“The packs, the surprise—that’s fun for people,” she said. “They like earning the packs, opening the packs, building the teams, trading the teams.”

Replace Packs with Slots, Teams with money, Opening/Building/Trading with Spin/Win/Lose

“The slots, the surprise—that’s fun for people,” she said. “They like earning the slots, spinning the slots, winning the money, losing the money.”

Scortch
Scortch
2 years ago

I think the thing for me lately is the level of greed they show, and how they sell it. This argument they are making just proves it. They won’t come out and say they are pushing for money, no no no, they are offering us opportunities for happiness. It’s gotten to be too much, I refuse to ever buy or play an EA game again, and I pray they lose their Star Wars deal in the future as well.

Padraic
Padraic
2 years ago
Reply to  Scortch

They’ve gone beyond the DLCs and content packs of the past. It’s now all about how much money they can make. Hell, Tim did a comic about that a few weeks ago! And if someone who can possibly afford to buy all the best stuff the moment the game comes out, and then make it completely unplayable for everyone else, EA doesn’t care! They already got their money! Just look at ever f2p or p2w game app out there! If you want to see real anger, check out Ludia’s forums on the new Warriors of Waterdeep game they just put… Read more »

Tumbleweed
Tumbleweed
2 years ago

Elon Musk: “It’s not a rocket failure, it’s just a rapid unscheduled disassembly” … all about how you reframe it.

Padraic
Padraic
2 years ago
Reply to  Tumbleweed

“Poor people used to live in slums. Now the economically disadvantaged occupy substandard housing in the inner cities. And they’re broke! They’re broke! They don’t have a negative cash-flow position. They’re fucking broke! Cause a lot of them were fired. You know, fired. management wanted to curtail redundancies in the human resources area, so many people are no longer viable members of the workforce.
Smug, greedy, well-fed white people have invented a language to conceal their sins.” – George Carlin

WizardLocke
WizardLocke
2 years ago
Reply to  Padraic

I was literally thinking this while I read the comic

Pedro Silva
Pedro Silva
2 years ago

The main fallacy on the guys argument is when they mention “earning” and not “paying”. That is where the argument falls flat. If you play the game, beat by your skills X level or Y boss and you get a “surprise mechanics”, that is fair game. It’s not gambling or similar. It’s a random reward, for something that everyone could theoretically do, that is implemented in a visually appealing style and very similar to the monster drop on games like Diablo. The issue here is that you don’t earn them, you pay for them. And this makes the same surprise… Read more »

The rAt
The rAt
2 years ago
Reply to  Pedro Silva

Well put.

nealithi
nealithi
2 years ago

Oh boy. Time to play Devils advocate. Collectible card packs. For say Magic the Gathering? Baseball cards?
Gambling and should be outlawed? Yes or No.

And honestly. I like the system they put in over in SWtOR. You can buy items directly for money. And unlock them for all your characters for money. Or for cheaper you can buy the random packs. They never drop in game. And your decision to get them is entirely your own.

Tee
Tee
2 years ago
Reply to  nealithi

Collectible card packs. For say Magic the Gathering? Baseball cards?
Gambling and should be outlawed?

Yes!

Ashi
Ashi
2 years ago
Reply to  Tim

It seems rather silly to me to argue that the existence of a secondary market and ability to assign a value to something makes it NOT gambling. If anything, isn’t that CLOSER to gambling because now you’re opening it…you might not get what you want, but you might get something valuable! In any other context, it would be shouted down as Pay-to-Win.

Garry
Garry
2 years ago
Reply to  Tim

So how does that differ from buying a game on Steam? You don’t OWN the game, as we saw with the Star Control debacle for a while, or those who have had entire libraries locked due to a single credit card purchase problem.

You could say that with a digital game purchase, you know WHAT you’re getting, but a day 1 purchase is as much of a gamble as any casino slot machine.

The rAt
The rAt
2 years ago
Reply to  Garry

“You could say that with a digital game purchase, you know WHAT you’re getting, but a day 1 purchase is as much of a gamble as any casino slot machine.” While I understand the point you’re trying to make, that’s not true. Even at Day 1, you know what you’re purchasing – what you don’t know is whether or not you’ll *enjoy* it. To say that it’s as much of a gamble as a casino or slot machine is to say that so is every movie you see on opening night, every product you purchase that you did not previously… Read more »

LuckyFalkor
LuckyFalkor
2 years ago
Reply to  Tim

Another point worth mentioning is that “physical loot boxes” are at least something you can display, gain value and be sold to collectors, passed down generations of family; virtual loot boxes, As Tim mentions, they are not owned, just licensed. As a result, virtual loot boxes can’t enjoy the same advantages mentioned for physical; want partial proof of this, look to Diablo’s failed real money market. To play devil’s advocate for a second, not taking into account the previous paragraph, virtual loot boxes are remarkably similar to physical ones and i would agree on that point. Something to consider then,… Read more »

Robert Loughrey
Robert Loughrey
2 years ago
Reply to  Tim

You do have options. Its still gambling and I’m more or less fine with it. My Killing Floor 2 account has TONS of unopened crates in it, because I’m not buying keys. I dont play games where the crates cause a problem. I quit playing PUBG when the real life sale value of the pink hot pants got so high that ever server was nothing but cheaters.

Rolan7
Rolan7
2 years ago
Reply to  Tim

I don’t see why gambling for untradeable things is worse than gambling for collectible cards. Isn’t the problem that companies are taking advantage of kids and people with gambling addiction? Whether this is harmful has nothing to do with aftermarket value. I’ve defended lootboxes in the past because I’m able to ignore them, so the result for me is that “foolish” people subsidize my gaming experience. But that was extremely disrespectful of me, since a lot of the victims are kids and gambling addiction is a real thing. Now I think there should be warnings and links to assistance resources… Read more »

Jason
Jason
2 years ago
Reply to  Rolan7

I think one thing to consider is that trading cards (at least when I played) had actual distribution, they weren’t purely blind packed the way loot boxes are. Each card pack guaranteed they would give you 1 rare, 3 uncommon and 4 common for example from whatever booster set you were buying from. Loot boxes really take things to one extreme by greatly reducing the odds, raising the prices and greatly increasing the accessibility. Should it be regulated? Probably, loot boxes and digital products for sure practically need it at this point. TCGs and other card collectibes? Well I honestly… Read more »

Rolan7
Rolan7
2 years ago
Reply to  Tim

I can agree with that, Tim! Gambling is gambling, but the resale value is a nice concession to gamers where it exists. I was just coming at this more from the harm angle, than the experience of an average gamer.

RblDiver
RblDiver
2 years ago
Reply to  Tim

It’s interesting you mention the secondary market, when my impression is that games are forbidding trading to prevent secondary markets specifically to avoid the appearance of it being gambling. That is, if games allowed players to buy and sell the items they get, would that make loot box systems more acceptable?

Lilitha
Lilitha
2 years ago
Reply to  Tim

So basically you are okay with the loot boxes in LoL? Since you can scrap extra stuff you get for ingredients to get new loot boxes, or buy characters? If the main complaint is just there is no options on what to do with duplicate or trash items, then LoL system allows options.

Nealithi
Nealithi
2 years ago
Reply to  Tim

Fair enough. But, policy used in SWtOR and STO. You can trade most of the loot box items. You gat an Ultra Rare ship unlock in STO it announces it and people may contact you to buy it for large in game sums. Does this mitigate the gamble since it is tradeable now? And ostensibly with people interested in the items themselves?

Tales
Tales
2 years ago
Reply to  nealithi

Gambling and should be outlawed no. The difference between a trading card game or any random prize pack for that matter, and digital loot rewards is physicality, you can buy, trade, and sell physical cards legally as once you buy them they are yours, you can’t so that with digital only goods that exist on a private companies servers. Also in say MtG packs you are always guaranteed to get a “rare” in any pack you buy, that is not true in loot boxes where most times to guarantee a rare you have to buy in multiplies of ten and… Read more »

Urazz
Urazz
2 years ago
Reply to  nealithi

Yeah, lootboxes aren’t similar to trading cards or kinder eggs since you don’t get anything physical and can’t actually trade them or sell them for something you want/need.

DanVzare
2 years ago
Reply to  nealithi

Here’s a perfect response for you.
The Game Corner in Pokemon was removed due to it being considered gambling. It involved no actual money, but it copied basic gambling mechanics (random chance of success).
Loot boxes also copies basic gambling mechanics (random chance of success), and also involve actual money, but are not considered gambling.

If you can explain to me why The Game Corner is not ok, and Lootboxes are, I will be greatly impressed.

Ewalker
Ewalker
2 years ago

I am surprised he didn’t just use the games are services, not products argument. I figured they would say that loot boxes aren’t gambling because you can’t actually win anything in a loot box. Anything you “win” is still property of the developer/publisher/copyright/license holder and you are merely being allowed to use it like a service.

They have already made that ridiculous argument for the game itself, why not the loot boxes inside the game.

Padraic
Padraic
2 years ago

With how they keep trying to find some sort of a way to puss-… oops, soft step, around these issues to deny that they are selling a gambling (“Pay more for possibly better stuff!” is the same mechanic you see in slot machines and craps tables) product.

“I’m telling you, some of this language makes me want to vomit. Well, maybe not vomit. Makes me want to engage in an involuntary personal protein spill.” – George Carlin

HonoredMule
HonoredMule
2 years ago
Reply to  Padraic

Isn’t pussy-footing a reference to actual young cats, as their stature and timid nature result in a very light/soft step? I know it trips me up too, coming across some reference that actually isn’t sexual or sexist.

Padraic
Padraic
2 years ago
Reply to  HonoredMule

I was trying for a bit of irony and sarcasm. It was meant to showcase how changing language changes the idea. Didn’t mean to confuse you. Sorry for slowing you down.

Him.
Him.
2 years ago

They’ve been in this business so long that emotions (happiness, decency, grief) is “no longer a viable use of resources”

Daniel Kuehn
Daniel Kuehn
2 years ago

Well, i was interested in this game but because EA held off on pre-ordering when my wife gave me the go-ahead. Seems like a good decision now.

Leon
Leon
2 years ago

It’s not “flaming’, it’s “undesirable internet stress relief” Quite ethical.

Raven
Raven
2 years ago

“I don’t think we can agree to say that games are addictive,” said Hopkins.

The WHO would beg to differ
https://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/

Tales
Tales
2 years ago
Reply to  Raven

No see The WHO says that gaming is a mental disorder not just an addiction, the main takeaway point is that you can get disability if it’s a disorder, but if it’s an addiction you just get to pay to go to therapy.

FITCamaro
FITCamaro
2 years ago
Reply to  Raven

Yeah we have the World Health Organization (and the Obama Administration) to thank in the US for the massive explosion of Social Security Disability claims. Basically nearly anything that is classified as a “disability” get you on it now. You’re depressed? Free money. You “can’t stop playing games”? Free money.

Logan
Logan
2 years ago
Reply to  FITCamaro

I wonder how much it pays.. Does it cover payments for these “surprize mechanics”? xD What else could this be milked for, I wonder (to try and change the assinine logic of WHO, of course).

HonoredMule
HonoredMule
2 years ago

My surprise mechanic is not buying any EA title for the last 15 years. I didn’t even know it was a surprise, that I would decline to be so mistreated.

FITCamaro
FITCamaro
2 years ago

While I despise many forms of loot boxes, and won’t even argue that they aren’t gambling, they still shouldn’t be illegal or regulated. Why? Don’t want to spend the money, don’t. It’s really quite that simple. Someone with a problem with that kind of reward should stay away from it. The same as an alcoholic should avoid drinking.

And for the children argument, be better parents and either don’t let your kid play the game or don’t give them access to money to buy them. If you do, that’s on you.

Resulli
Resulli
2 years ago
Reply to  FITCamaro

Part of the problem is that unlike establishments like casinos or stores that sell lottery and scratch tickets is that the video game industry has little in the way of age verification and control. As it stands a parent can buy their kid a game they aren’t of-age for and everything checks out where other the previously mentioned establishments will literally turn you away if they think you’re allowing a child to gamble because it’s outright illegal. Doubled with the fact that most video games have no age verification beyond the ESRB rating it’s entirely too easy for children to… Read more »

FITCamaro
FITCamaro
2 years ago

Also damn that dude must be packing if he’s inside her from that far away.

Kasaix
Kasaix
2 years ago

They get paid enough to ignore things like fact, integrity, and pride to spout complete nonsense.
“It’s not stealing, it’s surprise borrowing. It’s quite ethical.”

Resulli
Resulli
2 years ago
Reply to  Kasaix

More and more lately it seems like companies are forgetting the fact that their entire industry is still supposed to be serving the consumers, not the companies. All too often I’m seeing companies doing things that are entirely within the rules but they aren’t taking the consumer’s wants or needs into account. They act like just because they aren’t breaking any laws that they aren’t doing anything wrong. Made worse by the fact that in spite of whatever publicity they may or may not be getting they’re still getting the money so they don’t think they should have to listen… Read more »

Lilitha
Lilitha
2 years ago

Honestly, if it was just gambling it isn’t really even an issue. Adults can gamble. The biggest problem is when they target children.

Helldemon
Helldemon
2 years ago

Probably the most pissed off I’ve seen Jim Sterling and that’s saying something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7DFyrOeFeM

Logan
Logan
2 years ago

-They make us a promise that Fallen Order will not have “loot boxes”. Yay! -They turn around and have some random representative tell us about these “Surprise Mechanics”.(no doubts so they can throw under the bus later.. she looked way more stressed out than one should for simply having to tell a lie whole denying the real truth) Sketchy AF… I’m *highly” interested in Fallen Order. More so than I was for either BF, and maybe even a bit more than Unleashed when it first came out. But if Fallen Order ends up having these “Surprise Mechanics”, I will be… Read more »

Johnny
Johnny
2 years ago

OE Tim!!….the person who said this was a women, but you just can’t put a women as the “bad person”, can’t you?….you little twat.