24

Stupidgate

September 3, 2018 by Tim


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foducool
foducool
3 years ago

well, you wanted it, you got it

des
des
3 years ago

It’s obviously not about the puddle. I mean, I don’t even have a PS but the “puddless” version has obviously less details and effects than the one used at E3.

I’m not even surprised this happened since it seems to be common practice for a few years now, be it on PC or console, but it’s still better to point it out because it’s false advertising.

Daragh
Daragh
3 years ago
Reply to  des

But it’s not though. Demos shown at E3 or any other convention are just that. Demos. They don’t necessarily reflect the finished product entirely and I’m sure that’s stated throughout each presentation.

chris feltner
chris feltner
3 years ago
Reply to  Daragh

yea demos are made to look better as its the only thing a team works on to make it look perfect

foducool
foducool
3 years ago
Reply to  chris feltner

I think that’s because they try to make it the most beautiful to generate as much hype as they can and later on they realize “oh shit there’s no way we can run this on a normal PS4 without it blowing up”

spade
spade
3 years ago
Reply to  foducool

it’s not intetional lie tho
The way it works is that artists and programmers make a game that looks a certain way. When you start to add more things, it starts to get slower, so you need to optimize.
You should never optimize before the game is almost finished, because you could spend too much time on unneeded optimaliations.

Ctown
Ctown
3 years ago
Reply to  spade

Oh, its DEFINITELY intentional. Unmistakably and undeniably.
These massive triple A companies know exactly what hardware they’re working with and what it can do. Its not like some indie group that put too much detail in their models and “oops too much detail and it looks good but darn, bad frames”

Ctown
Ctown
3 years ago
Reply to  Daragh

Problems arise when companies use lines like “ACTUAL GAMEPLAY FOOTAGE” At which point it becomes blatant, flat-out lies. But this has been common practice for a very long time, not just the last handful of years, and I’m surprised that this only became an issue recently.

Croi
Croi
3 years ago
Reply to  Ctown

It’s ACTUAL GAMEPLAY FOOTAGE (Represents a work in progress).

Just because it’s ACTUAL GAMPLAY doesn’t mean that’s how it’s going to look in the end once more of the game is completed

Tim van der Meij
Tim van der Meij
3 years ago
Reply to  des

The weather was adjusted to be cloudier. Mystery solved.

Spade
Spade
3 years ago

Why was my comment deleted? It wasn’t offensive or anything? *confused*

Spade
Spade
3 years ago
Reply to  Spade

Nevermid, it just didn’t show up for some reason 😐 My bad.

The Aussie Bloke
The Aussie Bloke
3 years ago

All it needs now is Electro flinging bolts of electricity near Spidey every five minutes

Somewhere
Somewhere
3 years ago

Oh, he is. Poor guy zapped himself twice already. Fortunately for Spidey, there are some lightning rods under the water. Also highly elastic rubber suits absorb lightning pretty well.

Eldest Gruff
Eldest Gruff
3 years ago

Alright, I’m going to toss my two cents into the puddle here. I’m not a graphics guy at all. I think that 4K is a bit dumb, and that 60fps is indistinguishable from 30fps. My favorite game machine of last gen was the 3DS; this gen, the Switch. But even I can see that it’s not about the amount of water. You can see clearly that the advanced lighting that made the demo really come alive is gone. They stuck huge puddles in the demo to show off the incredible lighting and graphics that Spider-Man had. And then they pulled… Read more »

Ctown
Ctown
3 years ago
Reply to  Eldest Gruff

I think you’re totally right.

But I also think you’re outright blind if you cant see the difference between 30-60 😛

But in the context in which you said the thing about frames, I STILL agree, people pay way too much attention to graphics, and the need to meet that expectation pulls away from a game’s other qualities in a bad way

Insomniac Lied
Insomniac Lied
3 years ago
Reply to  Eldest Gruff

You’re objectively wrong about 60 vs 30 fps (you should check that your displays are capable of displaying 60 fps). But you’re spot on about everything else. Apparently the internet at large is going to turn puddles into a meme and sweep this one under the rug (despite tearing Watch Dogs to shreds for doing the exact same thing). It is blatantly clear that the E3 demo just 3 months ago was not running on real PS4 hardware considering how far they downgraded all these lighting effects. They weren’t honest with us at all. And “demo is not representative of… Read more »

Norrin
Norrin
3 years ago
Reply to  Eldest Gruff

Why do they need to sell the public on PS4? This entire generation, sales haven’t even been remotely close. Xbox lost. Bad. That’s not fanboy anything, that’s just sales numbers. Playstation chose to emphasize upcoming exclusives. Microsoft’s E3 show featured a whole ton of games, but I can play 95% of them on the other console too. Spider-Man didn’t need artificial publicity to build excitement. I work in a place that sells this stuff. Even then it was outpacing presales of Madden, NBA, CoD, and most of the other huge annual titles. I think people are making mountains out of… Read more »

merendel
merendel
3 years ago
Reply to  Tim

On the other hand when they pass off pre rendered eye candy as actual gameplay or they run said gameplay on a super computer not actual hardware to drum up false expectations you can hardly blame folks for feeling they were promised diamonds and got a polished turd instead.

Frankly I think the main problem is the hype train and the way marketing has evolved to promote said hype train.

Wildcard Mask
Wildcard Mask
3 years ago
Reply to  Tim

He was using a figure of speech when he said people feeling that they were promised diamonds. The issue at hand is the consistency of demonstrating impressive graphical demos for games that are almost always reduced in the final product. It’s an intentional marketing tactic to develop this hype for the next 1-2 years (to encourage preorders, etc) and it actually works. We, as a community, have learned to accept and expect that eventual downgrade of graphics further down the line of development, but that doesn’t inherently mean that they’re not at fault for (likely intentionally) drastically over-analyzing the performance… Read more »

HonoredMule
HonoredMule
3 years ago
Reply to  Wildcard Mask

Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence.

merendel
merendel
3 years ago
Reply to  Wildcard Mask

I’m mostly indifferent in this specific debate Tim. I dont even own a PS4 and have no particular interest in one as I’m primarily a PC gamer and so wouldn’t be purchasing this specific title either way. Personaly I’m more anoyed with the practice of anouncing/hyping a game 2,3, 5 years(looking at you star citizen) before its anywhere near a launch state. Its encurageing a trend of over promising and under delivering in general (aka anything peter molyneux ever touched) even if specific examples such as puddle gate are relatively minor and stupid. I think it would be much better… Read more »

Eldest Gruff
Eldest Gruff
3 years ago
Reply to  Tim

Tim- I hear you; totally. However, when you’re three months before launch, all you should really be doing is the last rounds of playtesting, bug fixing, and any final touches. You should KNOW if your game is capable of having thato level of graphics – if Spider-Man truly looks that textured and detailed, or (as at least one person with a review copy has said) kind of fuzzy.

The fact that they went back and said that there was no change to the graphics just kind of cemented this. Why lie, if you weren’t lying in the first place?

Eldest Gruff
Eldest Gruff
3 years ago
Reply to  Eldest Gruff

And just to be clear, I don’t care a bit about the puddles. I’m looking at Peter Parker himself. You can’t look at that character model, listen to Insomniac saying “all we changed was the puddle size,” and -not- know that they’re lying. If they came out and said “Look, we did have to slightly lower some resolution to handle some of the amazing fast paced action you’re going to see,” then I have no problem. Total respect. But people asked you, and you lied about it. No excuse.

Tim van der Meij
Tim van der Meij
3 years ago
Reply to  Eldest Gruff

So basically what you’re saying is Ted Price needs to be executed like Sean Murray? Because that’s what I’m feeling here.

Blue Griffin
Blue Griffin
3 years ago
Reply to  Eldest Gruff

To me this is kinda like seeing a scene for a film trailer and then not getting it in a movie even though it’s been advertise a lot in the trailers.

Things change in development and while some might be angry that x didn’t appear, there is no promise that it will be exactly as previewed.

Travis Fischer
Travis Fischer
3 years ago
Reply to  Tim

“Progress” doesn’t generally involve moving backwards.

Somewhere
Somewhere
3 years ago

7.8/10 too much water

Insomniac Lied
Insomniac Lied
3 years ago

Yeah sure, that’s what we needed. More people ignoring the actual downgrades to lighting, reflections, and shadows to defend the game because “lol puddles”

I for one am as sick as ever of being lied to. There’s no excuse for these downgrades over just three months. It shows they weren’t using real PS4 hardware at E3. They intentionally misled as several others have done in the past. Watch Dogs gets torn to shreds but we’re supposed to give Spider-Man a pass? Hell no.

Joshua
Joshua
3 years ago
Reply to  Tim

I’m not sure if you are being purposefully dense or are really that clueless. People called this out because of the very visible graphical downgrade and here you are straw-manning it to score brownie points with who really?

FITCamaro
FITCamaro
3 years ago
Reply to  Tim

Thank you. Picking it up Thursday/Friday.

End of the day, if you care about the size of puddles instead of the gameplay, don’t by the damn game.

Phil B
Phil B
3 years ago
Reply to  Tim

Yeah you said that way better than I did.

Jacob Keller
Jacob Keller
3 years ago
Reply to  Tim

Idk Tim, I am not sold. The suit looks like a teenager made it, and when he is swinging, every thing looks all blurry. ??

des
des
3 years ago
Reply to  Tim

Well, not exactly a good example being a shot of a tv screen instead of a direct capture. It looks awful in that video 😛

The moment he starts swinging the webs it also makes all the buildings lose all the details. Or maybe it’s that there’s so much blur!
(It’s usually the first effect I deactivate because it makes everything look like a smudge, but this is a console problem, not a spider-man problem.)

Bakamoichigei
Bakamoichigei
3 years ago

One of these days, I wish a company would actually do something like this in response to internet nonsense. Like, flag the PSN/XBL accounts of anybody complaining on any platform or forum that connects them to their accounts, and have their games be subject to a ‘fix’… To remove it they have to go into the options menu, fill out a short apology, and tick a box promising to “be a better person.” ?

Darkening
Darkening
3 years ago
Reply to  Bakamoichigei

You think that people that criticize a product should have that product crippled despite them paying money for it and have to grovel to get it fixed? That sure sounds like a fun dystopian future you’ve dreamt up there.

Brent
Brent
3 years ago

Spider-Fish, Spider-Fish, does whatever a Spider-Fish does….

I get that details are important, but trailers and final products are so often different just for movies, let alone games. I don’t give a fuck (mostly) how it looks, I care if the story and features live up to the promised expectations. If it does that, then I’ll start worrying about looks.

Phil B
Phil B
3 years ago

I haven’t really kept up with the development of Spiderman, so I suppose I’m not super qualified to say anything. I looked at the before/after photos of demo vs. final game, and yeah, I guess the lighting is better in the first picture. But who fucking cares? Do you really care that his suit isn’t photo realistic? Even in the after and the few videos I’ve looked at of the finished one, the game is still gorgeous. Did the gameplay change? People get so dick hard about graphics these days, the game still looks good. “But they lied,” so effing… Read more »

The rAt
The rAt
3 years ago

Wow, so this is a thing, huh? I think the people complaining about this need to look up the infamous Spaceworld 2000 Zelda Demo and compare it to the game that was actually produced (LoZ: The Wind Waker) for an example of legitimate misrepresentation. Unless they totally reworked the animation style of these puddles from the ground up and converted them to cell shading, then this is not something worth complaining about. Pretty sure these days there are any number of reviews available to learn the pros, the cons and the graphical minutiae of the game prior to purchase, so… Read more »

Karlos
Karlos
3 years ago
Reply to  The rAt

Why are you defending people who are misrepresenting the game? It’s less than other cases sure, but it’s still lying, specially when you use phrases like “Actual in game footage” or similar shticks (not the case in this one). I agree that no one should pre-order and should wait for reviews, I never do preorders the last one was MGSV and I would’ve bought it anyway (not that I think its a bad game, just a bad MG) but I still dont like when they put oh so gorgeous teasers and then the game looks like a potato. Yes, in… Read more »

Karlos
Karlos
3 years ago
Reply to  Karlos

Just adding this bit: In fact this doesn’t help in lots of cases, a lot of people will feel lied and won’t buy it, it’s better to do the opposite, show a bit less graphics than the full release and then improve them, then the people will go nuts for it and will buy even more. It’s better lie to then have a better product, than the oposite. One seems like you improved, the other makes you look like a manipulative arsehole.

The rAt
The rAt
3 years ago
Reply to  Karlos

Why are buying games from a “manipulative arsehole”? If it bothers you and you don’t buy it, then they won’t have your money. If they don’t have your money, they’ll have to change their tactics in order to get your money. Pretty basic. But that’s not what’s going to happen because what’s being sold is a fully operational game that’s good enough that, recent changes included, people *still* want. And that’s the root of it: people still want the game, or they wouldn’t be complaining. They just caught a glimpse of something slightly better, and whether or not that was… Read more »

Carlos Miguel Fernandez Perez
Carlos Miguel Fernandez Perez
3 years ago
Reply to  The rAt

I let my wallet do the talking, I only buy games that I like and find the publisher and developer to not have lied to me, I dont buy many games anymore so I chose carefully I dont have all the time, I will spend it in what I feel it deserves it and will make me have fun. Keep saying it’s just the puddles, not everything on the picture what is scaled down. It’s funny how people laugh at this, but when this happened with other games, nah, it’s true, where are those promised graphics. I still remember when… Read more »

The rAt
The rAt
3 years ago

I’m just trying to imagine how you think this whole thing went down: Exec: You, minion! Have we finished downgrading the graphics in preparation for release? Minion: Yes, sir! We’ve successfully scaled down the graphics by the 0.6% you requested. Exec: Excellent. When can we have gameplay videos ready? Minion: What? The game hasn’t come out yet – why would we let potential customers see these changes BEFORE they purchase the game? I thought we were trying to fool them, by not delivering what we “promised” in previously released previews of the unfinished product? *Exec slaps minion* Exec: Silence! Take… Read more »

Carlos Miguel Fernandez Perez
Carlos Miguel Fernandez Perez
3 years ago
Reply to  Tim

As Steve said, yes they do show them, and I said car manufacturers but I could say PC part makers, model makers… No, what they should do is wait a bit more to show it, don’t rush to show something you don’t know if you can deliver, it’s not that hard to grasp either, don’t promise what you can’t show. Or do you show in your work projects before you know you can do what you promised? Im sure any boss would fire someone if he/she always is showing something he can’t accomplish. Don’t show games so early, it’s not… Read more »

Carlos Miguel Fernandez Perez
Carlos Miguel Fernandez Perez
3 years ago

In fact, let me tell you what car makers do: Car makers say “We will do a new Mustang” (to say just a name). Then they start the design and maybe, 4 years after, they say what it’ll have once they know what’s doable, showing body concepts, engine concepts meanwhile, but just small things that don’t say what the entire car is like and they show just concepts not the real deal. Then, when they are sure they reveal the car as is to the public and to subdue the costs they meanwhile make small econobox cars, family cars etc… Read more »

Steve
Steve
3 years ago
Reply to  Karlos

Go to the LA auto show, or any event like this and you WILL find prototypes of engines, body designs, interiors and other mechanical components that never make it to production.. sorry to boot this analogy

al gore
al gore
3 years ago

climate change.

Phil B
Phil B
3 years ago
Reply to  al gore

Got ’em

Dakala
Dakala
3 years ago

Graphics don’t matter to me one bit. Then again, I’m still gaming with a trusty old Nvidia GTX 275, so… Make of that what you will. Story makes a good game and exploration can make a game more fun, but all graphics do is increase the amount of heat my GPU throws into the room. Plus, anyone wants a good challenge, try running your favorite games with less than 1GB of VRAM. I’d love to tell these companies to have a ‘potato mode’ where it can honestly look at your hardware and set things below the usual ‘low’ settings in… Read more »

Grumblin
Grumblin
3 years ago

Special Snowflakes be……. Special?

Runic
Runic
3 years ago

I’d put a longer comment about the difference itself, but most people have already covered that the problem is not the “amount of water” as it is so often flippantly dismissed away, but rather that the water was the largest example of the overall problem of the demo intentionally misrepresenting the final product’s capabilities. But it seems that there is a counter argument that the demo is not the final product and that for some reason means that any inconsistencies, downgrades, or outright misrepresentation is thus perfectly fine and acceptable, if not entirely defendable, because, hey, it was “still in… Read more »

Boronore
Boronore
3 years ago

Okay, help me understand something… 2 years ago, you were shown X about Game Last week, you were shown Y about Game, and it doesn’t look as good as X Game hasn’t released. Game is not in your hands. You are under no obligation to get Game. So how does this qualify as a lie or bait and switch? So how have you been lied to? It’s not like you opened a bag of Skittles and found Reese’s Pieces. They are literally showing the finished product going “This is what you can expect when you take the game home or… Read more »

Acnari
Acnari
3 years ago

Anybody ever notice that in commercials for movies, they sometimes show scenes that don’t actually happen in the movie? I’ve seen it happen a couple times. It’s weird, but I get over it pretty quick because the scenes still demonstrate the spirit of the movie…

Kasey Lee
Kasey Lee
3 years ago

Spider-Man: Wind Waker? I’d play it.

Alvulious
Alvulious
3 years ago

I feel like you are trying to rationalise to the void Tim. In order to try and balance all the other comments I just want to say that you are doing a commendable job in trying to explain some of the things that happen in the industry that a lot of people take to be nefarious.

Good luck. And yeah it does look like a fun game from what I have seen!

Steve
Steve
3 years ago

It’s reality. It’s possible all assets were too costly to implement in the final product at the projected sale volume. Have you ever been to an auto show? CES? Any sort of proto-type gathering? Sometimes it’s great to dream big, but when it comes to an actual business decision, the reality is that a certain direction may not be profitable. This is where you may argue, “Ahhhh! Why would they show us this in the first place?!?” Well, that’s because more than just one person runs the show. You have a development team dedicated to this prototype, and their goal… Read more »

Tim van der Meij
Tim van der Meij
3 years ago

What’s funny is that Digital Foundry’s video on this clearly explains that the changes are down to three reasons: 1) The weather is cloudier, which flattens the lighting. 2) The puddles were moved because the tech for rendering them was downgraded for manpower reasons, and 3) The suit doesn’t look as shiny because the specularity is much broader and less pin-pointy. And despite this there are MANY shots in the exact same sequence that look much better, from sparks casting light on the street, to improved room interiors, to higher traffic density on the streets. But NOOOOOO, let’s ignore all… Read more »

LBD "Nytetrayn"
3 years ago

Ick, Ultimatum adaptation? Hard pass.