Well, I can imagine a (very much evil and done by an even eviler DM) scenario where the only shrine with a resurected is lead by a “not so altruistic” priest, and well, you know…one have to eat, if you find something better tell me, and you should hurry, your friend is starting to stink
Humsterr
2 years ago
I find the most disappointing the way the character died.
I mean, if a character went out in an epic battle protecting the realm? Sure, he can stay dead, it is a great story. But what we have here, dying after the unfortunate fall (of dice), has to be changed
Interesting to see whether Three makes a temp or just remains DM only for the duration of the quest
And again I’d like to note how good at storytelling Tim got. All four equally participated in Tobyn’s death, while the flow of the story was completely natural, every character did what he/she would do
Playing 5e, Dragonborn Fighter, ready for anything. Except dex saves across rickety bridges. Failed three in a row, last one was a natural 1. Nobody to blame but my dice.
That might be true, but don’t forget to think. Who or what caused you to roll those dice specifically? Did you handcraft them yourself, or did your enemies perhaps conspire to put them in your hands, knowing they would fail you at that critical moment?
Any neigh-omnipotent enemy who has the foresight to reach across the dimensions and plant magical fate-altering dice on an unsuspecting roleplayer, yet does not have the presence of mind to pull the trigger when the heroes are slaughtering their Minions of Darkness, but only afterwards when the heroes are hauling out their stuff, isn’t a very good Big Bad of a campaign.
unfortunately people can die in unheroic ways… When I play a game (like Tomb Raider or something) and I die I think damn… what will happen to the world now there’s nobody to stop the bad guys…
and it is like that. What if the hero just dies in a really stupid way. Slip down a cliff or miss a jump or the rope snaps or you really really just run out of flares in a dark cave…
It sucks but yeah it is not impossible for a character to die in this way…
Games are not stories. There is a story (or a series of them), but the fact we use rules that can kill a character means that the story may not unfold as we imagine. Those from OSR roots often feel that the lesson you need to absorb is: If you make any mistake it can kill you. And that if you make no mistakes, bad luck and a harsh universe can kill you. Adventuring is not for the faint of heart. It does hurt when a long held character dies because of a failed die roll. But for the extent… Read more »
Erin
2 years ago
I mean if you’re gonna run a leap across a chasm as just a bunch of checks, you have to accept that an embarrassing, ignominious death is in the realm of possibility.
I mean, where’s the agency? There’s no real choice here except “I try to pull myself out”, or fall.
Lily
2 years ago
He should feel guilty, since it is mostly his fault, for knocking him in and for not casting feather fall. Mostly for not casting feather fall.
As a universalist “spell for every situation” wizard, I agree. Two forgot he prepped Slow Fall because it didn’t have anything to do with fire.
He murdered Tobyn -and shamed the class.-
Shame, shame.
Vukodlak
2 years ago
Anyone still want to make the argument he still deserves and extra share simply for carrying the loot?
Marcus
2 years ago
and then they all started praying to tobyn’s deity of choice whom swiftly smites each of them (not too harshly) taking some hp from each to gift back to tobyn.
Paula
2 years ago
Yes! Carry the body to a temple and pay whatever they want. I want Tobyn back!
Seriously, I love this storytelling…and I hate to lose RPG characters.
Dagroth
2 years ago
That’s why I prefer to play diceless (or mostly diceless) storytelling games, where the character won’t die because of bad rolls, with players being unable to do anything about it. (for the record, that’s not a complaint about the story) Nasty things, with dying included, can still happen, but usually as a result of players’ decisions. Or if they were planned as part of the story, but (as a GM) not -too- nasty in this case (assuming players have no way to prevent/influence it). Or in some cases, if arranged with one of the players (in that case, other players… Read more »
Last edited 2 years ago by Dagroth
Cyrad
2 years ago
I’m sure Batman would have been able to save him.
A shame somebody didn’t let Batman join the party.
One’s attempt at Batman once joined it. He put all his points into Charisma stat, was all dark, brooding… and nearly useless. So, he wouldn’t be able to. (I tried to find that comic, but don’t remember, when it was posted, and searching for “Batman” returned a lot of results with regular Batman, not the one I was looking for)
True, but that was only his second attempt. Cyrad is referring to One’s original character, on the first page of The Campaign. The one he was forced to abandon in favor of Not-Batman the Rib Crusher.
On the other hand. Robert O’Cop might not have been able to make that jump.
Pulse
2 years ago
awww they love you so much 3. totally not them feeling bad for each having a hand in your death.
Humsterr
2 years ago
Ironic how they can revive themselves faster than an RPG character
Eldest Gruff
2 years ago
This is a surprising amount of wholesomeness, care, and support from a group of four people who routinely murder each other IRL.
foducool
2 years ago
it was a group effort XD
Bakhtosh
2 years ago
Wouldn’t a high level cleric be…not due…but likely to receive a bit of divine intervention? Even if it’s just a messenger of the deity giving the party a quest…
He’s hardly a key character, though. I believe we once had a similiar discussion with Tim, and he said something about, that’s why GM is playing a cleric, mostly a support character, so that he doesn’t end up solving the problems for others.
I think I wouldn’t do that (as a GM), as it might be tricky to separate the ideas a character might get from those I would (separating the knowledge would be easier, I think), but if Three can pull it off, more power to him.
I’m sorry you’ve never had a DM that could manage a PC alongside the party, and I’ll concede that most cannot. But there’s nothing inherently wrong with a DM running a character (especially a support character if the party doesn’t pick one themselves) as long as they have the restraint to keep the two halves separate.
Apart from railroading the party or omniscience (“I search for a hidden lever on this wall, because I put one there”) a DMPC can function perfectly well in a support role, doing some fun RP and rolling some dice.
Just one additional thought: if you think that a GM-run PC is necessary for the group, how about letting them use henchmen or hirelings to fill the gaps in their group instead?
Urazz
2 years ago
Well, no bonding like team bonding as a result of the entire team killing a teammate with incompetence.
Scortch
2 years ago
Wow this is a really rare moment of compassion from 2. Usually the players are gouging each other.
dokoboe
2 years ago
I had something similar happen in one of my recent campaigns, and we resolved the loss by having the cleric’s god raise him as a hollow one as payment for loyalty, so Blyn the ravager, scourge of the underdark and lord of the mighty pyres of hermic is now Blyn the reborn.
unchecked
2 years ago
i like 4’s comment the most
mcjstar
2 years ago
Yeah, I mean I get this for story purposes this makes great comedy, but if you have ever played, this situation just SUCKS. And there are definitely some flaws in this. One, tossing the bag down should not have been a roll of any sort. That’s micromanaging things and the bag could have just been tossed down and picked up without any rolls, and then used to stabilize him. Two, you get to make more death saving throws than just 1. You have to roll three success or three failures. If you botch it’s still only 2 and you still… Read more »
Your basing this on what system? The campaign isn’t a set system, its a multi quasi based game with similarities to some systems. As already mentioned by Tim on yesterdays post. In Pathfinder 2e, if you critically fail Administering First Aid, you increase your target’s dying value by 1. If you take damage while dying, it goes up by one. If you fail your recovery roll, it goes up by one. If you reach 4, you’re dead. Tobyn Falling due to Flizwit’s “help” Tobyn getting smacked in the face with Cake’s 25lb metal traps Tobyn failing his own recovery roll… Read more »
I base off D&D 5e, but yeah I get that a system isn’t really stated for their game. However your incidents are still flawed. Falling is the thing that put him at dying, so your first point is null since he hadn’t fallen yet. Cake’s bag should not have counted. As I said in my first post, the bag should have been tossed down and it shouldn’t have been made to hit him in the head. There was no need to make that happen or to force a roll for it to not happen. OK, so now two death saves… Read more »
Umm… Tim, the guy who made the comic, posted those, not me. That is not my logic, that is the guy who wrote this logic. He is the GM in this story, its his choice what to do. Sure Cake could have dropped it further away but if her intent was to drop it as close to the Barbarian as possible to save precious time, then that was the character choice. Players (Both IRL and in the Comic) Don’t always go for the ‘logical’ solution. Look back at the orb and staff puzzle, those are the people your speaking about… Read more »
Alcor
2 years ago
To be serious for a moment, this is why I almost never have character death in the games I GM. It’s way more fun to have your character suffer some grisly but nonlethal fate or trauma or such, than to just be like “nope, you’re dead, sucks for your personal narrative and character development.”
depends on the game and how its done. As part of a TPK I have had the party get captured, their secondary plebs did a mission to save them. I have played with a GM who craply fudged the die after the fact just so he didn’t drop one of my characters. Dwarf was attacked by an orc which happened to hit, took my last few HP away to drop me dying, GM ‘Oh, that didn’t happen, you still have X HP left’. I mean, whats the point in a fantasy game full of adventure without danger? I like the… Read more »
joefuck
2 years ago
Seems like Three is a pretty bad GM. Guilt-tripping their players into abandoning a quest for them to revive their favourite NPC is such a weird vain move.
24
Well, now find a shrine, a cleric and hope to have gold or diamonds enough to pay for the service
Welp, they -are- walking out of this cave with a ton of goodies already. Looks like they’ll have to be poor a little while longer!
Well, I can imagine a (very much evil and done by an even eviler DM) scenario where the only shrine with a resurected is lead by a “not so altruistic” priest, and well, you know…one have to eat, if you find something better tell me, and you should hurry, your friend is starting to stink
I find the most disappointing the way the character died.
I mean, if a character went out in an epic battle protecting the realm? Sure, he can stay dead, it is a great story. But what we have here, dying after the unfortunate fall (of dice), has to be changed
Interesting to see whether Three makes a temp or just remains DM only for the duration of the quest
And again I’d like to note how good at storytelling Tim got. All four equally participated in Tobyn’s death, while the flow of the story was completely natural, every character did what he/she would do
Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
This same situation happened to me, basically.
Playing 5e, Dragonborn Fighter, ready for anything. Except dex saves across rickety bridges. Failed three in a row, last one was a natural 1. Nobody to blame but my dice.
That might be true, but don’t forget to think. Who or what caused you to roll those dice specifically? Did you handcraft them yourself, or did your enemies perhaps conspire to put them in your hands, knowing they would fail you at that critical moment?
Any neigh-omnipotent enemy who has the foresight to reach across the dimensions and plant magical fate-altering dice on an unsuspecting roleplayer, yet does not have the presence of mind to pull the trigger when the heroes are slaughtering their Minions of Darkness, but only afterwards when the heroes are hauling out their stuff, isn’t a very good Big Bad of a campaign.
Now I’m picturing an evil Horse God cursing all of the dice… 😀
I’d love to blame autocorrect, but nope, that’s just me being stupid. 😀
Don’t worry its funnier this way.
Bad Hose, Bad Horse, The thoroughbred of ones, He got the saving throw you just got done…
unfortunately people can die in unheroic ways… When I play a game (like Tomb Raider or something) and I die I think damn… what will happen to the world now there’s nobody to stop the bad guys…
and it is like that. What if the hero just dies in a really stupid way. Slip down a cliff or miss a jump or the rope snaps or you really really just run out of flares in a dark cave…
It sucks but yeah it is not impossible for a character to die in this way…
You folks should try playing Call of Cthulu. Avoidable, anticlimactic deaths are omnipresent
Played Cthulu, finished multiple cases. No deaths (On the players end)
Games are not stories. There is a story (or a series of them), but the fact we use rules that can kill a character means that the story may not unfold as we imagine. Those from OSR roots often feel that the lesson you need to absorb is: If you make any mistake it can kill you. And that if you make no mistakes, bad luck and a harsh universe can kill you. Adventuring is not for the faint of heart. It does hurt when a long held character dies because of a failed die roll. But for the extent… Read more »
I mean if you’re gonna run a leap across a chasm as just a bunch of checks, you have to accept that an embarrassing, ignominious death is in the realm of possibility.
I mean, where’s the agency? There’s no real choice here except “I try to pull myself out”, or fall.
He should feel guilty, since it is mostly his fault, for knocking him in and for not casting feather fall. Mostly for not casting feather fall.
As a universalist “spell for every situation” wizard, I agree. Two forgot he prepped Slow Fall because it didn’t have anything to do with fire.
He murdered Tobyn -and shamed the class.-
Shame, shame.
Anyone still want to make the argument he still deserves and extra share simply for carrying the loot?
and then they all started praying to tobyn’s deity of choice whom swiftly smites each of them (not too harshly) taking some hp from each to gift back to tobyn.
Yes! Carry the body to a temple and pay whatever they want. I want Tobyn back!
Seriously, I love this storytelling…and I hate to lose RPG characters.
That’s why I prefer to play diceless (or mostly diceless) storytelling games, where the character won’t die because of bad rolls, with players being unable to do anything about it. (for the record, that’s not a complaint about the story) Nasty things, with dying included, can still happen, but usually as a result of players’ decisions. Or if they were planned as part of the story, but (as a GM) not -too- nasty in this case (assuming players have no way to prevent/influence it). Or in some cases, if arranged with one of the players (in that case, other players… Read more »
I’m sure Batman would have been able to save him.
A shame somebody didn’t let Batman join the party.
One’s attempt at Batman once joined it. He put all his points into Charisma stat, was all dark, brooding… and nearly useless. So, he wouldn’t be able to. (I tried to find that comic, but don’t remember, when it was posted, and searching for “Batman” returned a lot of results with regular Batman, not the one I was looking for)
Can’t edit anymore, but I managed to find the beginning of that story: https://cad-comic.com/comic/the-campaign-crypt/
True, but that was only his second attempt. Cyrad is referring to One’s original character, on the first page of The Campaign. The one he was forced to abandon in favor of Not-Batman the Rib Crusher.
Ah, that one. I didn’t remember it, the other one was more memorable. 😉
On the other hand. Robert O’Cop might not have been able to make that jump.
awww they love you so much 3. totally not them feeling bad for each having a hand in your death.
Ironic how they can revive themselves faster than an RPG character
This is a surprising amount of wholesomeness, care, and support from a group of four people who routinely murder each other IRL.
it was a group effort XD
Wouldn’t a high level cleric be…not due…but likely to receive a bit of divine intervention? Even if it’s just a messenger of the deity giving the party a quest…
Roll for the save on that one. Critical fail: A messenger from the deity’s enemy arrives to finish him off.
GM shouldn’t be playing a key character anyway.
Nonsense.
It’s not.
I sincerely hope that your GMs aren’t playing PCs in your campaigns. And if you’re the GM and you’re doing that, it’s a disservice to your players.
Well my players love my characters when I GM. the trick is playing them right. Heavily useful without stealing the spot light.
You’re stealing experiences from them.
He’s hardly a key character, though. I believe we once had a similiar discussion with Tim, and he said something about, that’s why GM is playing a cleric, mostly a support character, so that he doesn’t end up solving the problems for others.
I think I wouldn’t do that (as a GM), as it might be tricky to separate the ideas a character might get from those I would (separating the knowledge would be easier, I think), but if Three can pull it off, more power to him.
I should have said “PC” instead of “key character”
The cleric is clearly a Player Character (as opposed to an NPC) as it is involved in conversations.
No. Not more power to him. The GM PC is doing things that a player should be doing.
I’m sorry you’ve never had a DM that could manage a PC alongside the party, and I’ll concede that most cannot. But there’s nothing inherently wrong with a DM running a character (especially a support character if the party doesn’t pick one themselves) as long as they have the restraint to keep the two halves separate.
Apart from railroading the party or omniscience (“I search for a hidden lever on this wall, because I put one there”) a DMPC can function perfectly well in a support role, doing some fun RP and rolling some dice.
I’m glad I’ve never had a GM that tried. Thinking that you can without cheapening the players’ experience is plain hubris.
Achievements are lessened and means the players are being robbed of activities.
Also it creates unnecessarily weird situations where the GM PC would go quiet while the GM was doing what the GM was supposed to be doing.
Clearly we have no common ground on this discussion, so we may as well call it quits.
Keep up the good work on the comics.
Just one additional thought: if you think that a GM-run PC is necessary for the group, how about letting them use henchmen or hirelings to fill the gaps in their group instead?
Well, no bonding like team bonding as a result of the entire team killing a teammate with incompetence.
Wow this is a really rare moment of compassion from 2. Usually the players are gouging each other.
I had something similar happen in one of my recent campaigns, and we resolved the loss by having the cleric’s god raise him as a hollow one as payment for loyalty, so Blyn the ravager, scourge of the underdark and lord of the mighty pyres of hermic is now Blyn the reborn.
i like 4’s comment the most
Yeah, I mean I get this for story purposes this makes great comedy, but if you have ever played, this situation just SUCKS. And there are definitely some flaws in this. One, tossing the bag down should not have been a roll of any sort. That’s micromanaging things and the bag could have just been tossed down and picked up without any rolls, and then used to stabilize him. Two, you get to make more death saving throws than just 1. You have to roll three success or three failures. If you botch it’s still only 2 and you still… Read more »
Your basing this on what system? The campaign isn’t a set system, its a multi quasi based game with similarities to some systems. As already mentioned by Tim on yesterdays post. In Pathfinder 2e, if you critically fail Administering First Aid, you increase your target’s dying value by 1. If you take damage while dying, it goes up by one. If you fail your recovery roll, it goes up by one. If you reach 4, you’re dead. Tobyn Falling due to Flizwit’s “help” Tobyn getting smacked in the face with Cake’s 25lb metal traps Tobyn failing his own recovery roll… Read more »
I base off D&D 5e, but yeah I get that a system isn’t really stated for their game. However your incidents are still flawed. Falling is the thing that put him at dying, so your first point is null since he hadn’t fallen yet. Cake’s bag should not have counted. As I said in my first post, the bag should have been tossed down and it shouldn’t have been made to hit him in the head. There was no need to make that happen or to force a roll for it to not happen. OK, so now two death saves… Read more »
Umm… Tim, the guy who made the comic, posted those, not me. That is not my logic, that is the guy who wrote this logic. He is the GM in this story, its his choice what to do. Sure Cake could have dropped it further away but if her intent was to drop it as close to the Barbarian as possible to save precious time, then that was the character choice. Players (Both IRL and in the Comic) Don’t always go for the ‘logical’ solution. Look back at the orb and staff puzzle, those are the people your speaking about… Read more »
To be serious for a moment, this is why I almost never have character death in the games I GM. It’s way more fun to have your character suffer some grisly but nonlethal fate or trauma or such, than to just be like “nope, you’re dead, sucks for your personal narrative and character development.”
depends on the game and how its done. As part of a TPK I have had the party get captured, their secondary plebs did a mission to save them. I have played with a GM who craply fudged the die after the fact just so he didn’t drop one of my characters. Dwarf was attacked by an orc which happened to hit, took my last few HP away to drop me dying, GM ‘Oh, that didn’t happen, you still have X HP left’. I mean, whats the point in a fantasy game full of adventure without danger? I like the… Read more »
Seems like Three is a pretty bad GM. Guilt-tripping their players into abandoning a quest for them to revive their favourite NPC is such a weird vain move.